School me on toolholders

Just picked up (but have not yet received) a Trak VMC that takes BT30. This will be the first time I've dealt with... well, anything but R8, really.

The machine comes with no tooling, so I wanted to get a few starter holders on the way. I know I'll eventually need a small fleet of them, but for now, budget constraints keep me from going whole hog.

Budget aside, I'm not about to buy whatever's on special on eBay or something, so I plan to pick up a few from Maritool.

The questions:

Do you have a vendor you'd prefer other than Maritool? I'm not going to go for (yet, if ever) things like heat-shrink holders, I figured I'd stick with a few sizes of ER. The machine only has a 6K spindle.

What sort of 'starter' selection would you suggest? Again, budget constraints- the machine only has an eight-tool changer, and at Maritool prices including pull studs, that's over a grand. I can swing that for the moment, but not much more.

I'm thinking- again, just a starter- of two each ER 16, 20, 25 and 32. I could probably get away with just a six pack of ER-20. It's not a big machine nor are my parts, the 32 may be overkill for the moment.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

Just picked up (but have not yet received) a Trak VMC that takes BT30. This will be the first time I've dealt with... well, anything but R8, really.

The machine comes with no tooling, so I wanted to get a few starter holders on the way. I know I'll eventually need a small fleet of them, but for now, budget constraints keep me from going whole hog.

Budget aside, I'm not about to buy whatever's on special on eBay or something, so I plan to pick up a few from Maritool.

The questions:

Do you have a vendor you'd prefer other than Maritool? I'm not going to go for (yet, if ever) things like heat-shrink holders, I figured I'd stick with a few sizes of ER. The machine only has a 6K spindle.

What sort of 'starter' selection would you suggest? Again, budget constraints- the machine only has an eight-tool changer, and at Maritool prices including pull studs, that's over a grand. I can swing that for the moment, but not much more.

I'm thinking- again, just a starter- of two each ER 16, 20, 25 and 32. I could probably get away with just a six pack of ER-20. It's not a big machine nor are my parts, the 32 may be overkill for the moment.

Doc.

Click to expand...

The short gage length solid/set screw endmill holders would probably be a good fit for that machine. In my opinion the increased rigidity more than makes up for the slight increase in tool runout, especially on a lower rpm spindle

I'd choose two ER sizes (say, 16 and 25 or 32) and get a handful of them rather than 2x of all the collet series. It gives you the range you need, but cuts down on the types of collets you have to stock - two series rather than four. Much cheaper and easier to track.

I mostly have ER16 and ER40, use them in CAT40 Haas mills. A few other series for specific needs, but the bulk of my collets are 16 and 40.

You don't need collets at all really. Setcrew holders are better for most things. Collets are expensive, finicky and complicated.

Most of my toolholders are second hand. I have about 200 Cat50 and BT40 holders currently. I have never bought a collet holder new, only setscrew holders, but I have a shitload of ER16, ER32, TG100, SK10 and SK16 holders plus a mountain of hydraulics. I use the ER16/SK16 sizes for small drills and taps, but most everything is a sidelock and the collet holders sit in the cabinet.

You bought the machine to make products right? Buy the stuff you need as you need it. I would definitely NOT buy into a couple of each size ER holders. Then you need a bunch of different size collets. Collets are really damn expensive little bits of metal.

I've heard if you don't know what you need you can give Frank @ Maritool a call and he's pretty good at suggesting a starter pack for what you're doing.

In CAT40 machines ER32 and ER16 are the most popular. In BT30 it is ER25 and ER16.

Yes our short side locks are very popular. Also our new hydraulic tool holders are popular and very easy to use.

Shrinks are also great but has a high resistance because of the price of the shrink machines. Yet another reason hydraulics are popular.

Yes I recommend to always buy the bare minimum. Run the machine, see what else you need and what you like. Then buy more.

I'm going to echo what others have already said.

Buying ER16 ER20 ER25 AND!!!!!! ER32.. ????

Maybe if you had a shop with 20 or 30 machines running, but you have
ONE!!

I'll say what's already been said again, just so it sinks in..
Collets are NOT cheap.. One of them is pretty cheap, but a set
of them isn't free. And of course you need a bunch the same size
at the same time, so 2 sets is even 'less free' than one set.

Set Screw holders for your endmills.. They are about as dirt
cheap as you can get, and in my experience, you get more rigidity,
which you need on a 30 taper. and there is no fuss trying to get
them to run true. Stuff it in, and tighten the screw.. Lot more
work, and cleaning with a collet holder.

I run ER16's and ER32's.. And I have a few ER40 holders and a set of
collets, because, more than I care to count, I need to grab that 59/64
drill, or 27/32.

setscrew holders also work well with twist drills. Grind a little notch and you're done.

I'd choose two ER sizes (say, 16 and 25 or 32) and get a handful of them rather than 2x of all the collet series. It gives you the range you need, but cuts down on the types of collets you have to stock - two series rather than four. Much cheaper and easier to track.

Click to expand...

-Good point, I'd been thinking about that. I already have a ton of ER collets in various sizes, though for the moment they're mostly cheap eBay stuff, all of which I use on the turret lathe, where super-fine accuracy isn't necessarily a worry.

I'd kind of thought that, since virtually all the endmills I'd be using will have the same shank size (even numbers like 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", etc.) I wouldn't necessarily need to get a full set for each one, I could get away with just ordering, say, two 16s, two 20s, etc. of good quality. (And of course try to keep the segregated from the cheap ones.)

Use the cheapy full sets I already have for if/when I need to hold an odd-size drill- since a typical drill bit won't be a particularly high-accuracy tool either.

You don't need collets at all really. Setcrew holders are better for most things. Collets are expensive, finicky and complicated.

Click to expand...

-Expensive yes, but finicky and complicated?

I was always led to believe that setscrew holders, by their very nature, tended to have more runout. I suppose that's more of a problem with a 10K or 20K RPM spindle than a mere 6K, but wouldn't surface finishes still be an issue?

You bought the machine to make products right? Buy the stuff you need as you need it.

Click to expand...

-That's the idea. Even if I had the budget, I wasn't going to go nuts and place a $5K Maritool order. BUT... obviously being able to hold some basic endmills is pretty much guaranteed. I wanted, as I said, at least a starter kit on hand for when it arrives, just so I'm not staring at it blankly waiting for tooling to arrive.

Even just a pair of ER-20 and a couple of 1/2" setscrew holders would at least let me make some chips and crash the thing a couple of times.

Also our new hydraulic tool holders are popular and very easy to use.

Click to expand...

-Hydraulics, in my opinion, at least for the moment fall into the same range as the shrink-fits. That's a considerable extra cost for what I can see as very little benefit- especially considering that clearly more than a few think that a setscrew unit would be fine in my situation.

Doc.

Collets nice but.
A few shank sizes at first. Set screw holders.
Collets add a interconnect and a whole another insatiability point and errors.
The best thing since sliced bread to grab lots of things but do add problems.
Bob

DocsMachine said:

-Expensive yes, but finicky and complicated?

I was always led to believe that setscrew holders, by their very nature, tended to have more runout. I suppose that's more of a problem with a 10K or 20K RPM spindle than a mere 6K, but wouldn't surface finishes still be an issue?

Click to expand...

No, that is completely wrong. A quality setscrew holder has no effectual runout. Collet on the other hand has a dozen places where the tolerance stacks up to make it nearly impossible to be better than just OK.

Collets are the worst accuracy in toolholder types.

Garwood said:

No, that is completely wrong. A quality setscrew holder has no effectual runout. ....

Click to expand...

I will do the bad guy here. So fixed set screw. Tool shank .0002 under to .0002 over has to fit the hole.
Then there is the force of the screw on on side.
Normal thinking would seem a collet would center such better.?
Bob

For my 30 taper machines I've sort-of standardized on ER16 holders. I find I can always use a few more and I have a bunch now. I never bought a collet set. I just buy a collet or two when I need them. They accumulate over time. The Maritool super short side lock holders for 1/2 and 3/8" endmills- great!

Maybe an ER32 or two for a few larger collets.

DocsMachine said:

-Expensive yes, but finicky and complicated?

I was always led to believe that setscrew holders, by their very nature, tended to have more runout. I suppose that's more of a problem with a 10K or 20K RPM spindle than a mere 6K, but wouldn't surface finishes still be an issue?

Click to expand...

I'm in a snarky mood. So PLEASE tell me more on why you believe a set screw holder would have more runout?

I'll wait..
***********

I aint got all day.. So.. Set screw holder. The ID is ground concentric with the taper, within a tenth or 2.
You can hang that endmill out a fricken mile and the majority of the error is going to be in your tool taper
to tool holder interface.

So Set screw holder. Stick the tool in, tighten the screw. You will get a few tenths runout at most due
to shank and hole size. Is it dirty, who cares, doesn't matter. Does it need lubricating in the proper
place. NO.. Stick it in, tighten the screw.. good to go.

ER collet holder. How many errors can there be. Lets break it down to manufacture vs user. Ignoring the
interface with the machine, because that is a given.

Manufacturing.

1) taper in the holder itself.
2) concentricity and quality of the screw thread on the holder
3) concentricity of the taper in the nut.
4) concentricity and quality of the threads in the nut

Now we can get to collets.

5) Concentricity of EVERYTHING!!!! Is it to size? The back taper, front taper and
ID. How good are they really? Can't grind it all at once. There is an error there.

Opposed to the set screw holder. All it needs is the ID and concentric to the taper.

USER:

Is the taper clean, the collet clean.. All the threads clean. Proper lubrication of the
proper places and dry on others. And torque. That can make a big difference.

Years ago I got a pile of holders from Maritool. 2008 maybe. My first personally owned
Cat40's. I got some ER40's. And at the time there was a thread going on. So I put a gage
pin in one of his holders (Maritool). The run out was pretty
shitty. Shortly after Mr Frank Mari posted about proper torque.. Well what do you know,
Torque that SOB properly, and the runout came right in to a few tenths. I was quite the happy camper.

And then lets talk about rigidity. Set screw holder. Screw, at a right angle into the tool,
and spindle.. DONE.. That's it. The Tool CAN'T move.

A collet holder. A SPRINGY collet that you can squeeze with your fingers, threads
not at a right angle into a solid piece of metal, and bunch of moving parts.

----------

I have no clue why set screw holders got a bad name? My guess is because they are
simple and cheap. Kennametal can't charge you $600 for a single set screw holder,
though I'm sure they will try. And people automatically think if its more expensive,
its better.. Though I will tell you that the No-Name Sure Fine brand "Toaster Pastries"
blow Pop-Tarts out of the water.

CarbideBob said:

I will do the bad guy here. So fixed set screw. Tool shank .0002 under to .0002 over has to fit the hole.
Then there is the force of the screw on on side.
Normal thinking would seem a collet would center such better.?
Bob

Click to expand...

A collet allows an angle. A set screw holder doesn't, if its ground properly. If you are 2 tenths out at
the tool holder, depending on your taper in your spindle. you will be 2 tenths out 2 inches out. Or 6 inches out.

There are so many interacting parts and tapers, and 2 of them are THREADS that all have to be F'n perfect
with a collet, A couple millionths here, a couple there, proper torque, It all stacks. ..
And next thing you know you're a mile off.

Bobw said:

I have no clue why set screw holders got a bad name? My guess is because they are
simple and cheap.

Click to expand...

Snarky here also.
Wonder Frank's view or experience on one part fit vs multipart at reasonable stick out.
Needing zero run how is the grind operation done on the cutting tool itself?
Rabbit hole. Let's all go crazy in the tunnel.
Uour tool is not straight or true to crazy tolerance.
One can bip, tap, reseat or all that in at one indicated location to microns and it will be be out if you move the indicator up or down a tad.
Sorry, this is real life.
We know no perfect world in any of this and deal with it as needed.
Perhaps that is machinist.
Bob

I see like everything else in this biz (and cars, trucks, desktop PCs, beer choices, sodas and footwear ) there's some disagreement about favorite choices.

Personally, I have had very good results from even cheapy eBay ER collets in my R8 spindls. I have definitely heard of crappy collets with a ton of runout and I don't in the least doubt it happens. But most of mine run out at less than half a thou, and my Glacern R8 ER holders have as close to zero runout as I can measure.

I picked up a pair of ER-16 and a pair of ER-20, both 60mm, the smaller with 'slim' nuts, four collets, and a set of pull studs, from Maritool.

I figure 3/8" and 1/2" collets will get me started, and if necessary, I have some known-good collets that can be used to hold drills or other odd-size shanks.

I may well wind up with some setscrew units eventually, I'll almost certainly buy at least one and see how it compares to one of the ERs.

Doc.

Going to agree wholeheartedly on that one, sidelock holders are superior to ER collets for holding endmills in most situations. I've never been able to measure any appreciable runout on any of our sidelock holders, and none of them were what I could call a good brand. Our ER collets, on the other hand, always (literally, every single time) require tweaking to knock the runout down to a manageable degree. Not even get rid of the run out, just minimize it. Also, tool pullout on a collet holder is a very real concern, not so much with a sidelock. And much shorter gauge lengths and smaller nose radii are easily achievable when you don't have to deal with a collet and nut. And minimal tool stickout is key to rigidity. It's always better to get up close and personal. Hard to do without exotic collet holders.

We had primarily Technics toolholders in the newer machines (got a deal from the Haas dealer) and they were ok. Nothing special, about the minimum quality I would consider paying money for. The sidelock holders with the integral coolant passages around the tool (coolblast, or coolflex for ER collets) are the most useful thing I've found if you have through spindle coolant. When I got my hands on enough setscrew holders I pulled every ER collet holder with a mill in it out of the machines, never looked back.

Now, ER collets have their uses, and I recommend having real imperial holders for fractional sized tools, and real metric holders for metric tooling, and tap specific collets for taps. But yea, they're easy, buy 'em as you need them.

I'm in a snarky mood. So PLEASE tell me more on why you believe a set screw holder would have more runout?

I'll wait..

Click to expand...

-Easy. The hole in the holder necessarily has to be some amount larger than the shank- if it weren't, it'd be a shrink fit.

The setscrew pushes the endmill against one side of the said hole.

Yes, I fully agree that depending on the quality of the holder, the difference is slight, but pretty much by design, there HAS to be some runout.

As I said above, on my better ER stuff, runout is immesaurable. I have a Glacern ER-16 R8 holder, and with a moderate-quality collet and a good endmill, runout as measured with a one-tenth B&S indicator is zero, no needle movement whatsoever.

Even some of the cheap eBay stuff barely ticks the same needle at maybe half a thou.

Doc.

Couple ER16's, couple ER32's and the appropriate collets

handful of set-screw holders

Shell mill arbors with 1/2 and 3/4 pilot

dedicated edge finder holder

maybe a couple hydraulic holders for finishing work.
That should be enough to get you by I'd think

At our shop we use those keyless drill chucks for all our HSS tool holding. These work perfectly fine for that and give you 1 holder that holds a range of about .03 to .5. The Accupro ones are actually pretty nice. Get 1 or 2 holders with the taper to push the chuck onto and you got fast, easy, flexible tool changing. I tighten them as tight as I can by hand with a paper towel around the thing for grip and I never have one spin unless I crash into something. Comes back out by hand too! Something everyone so far failed to mention (unless I missed it) is do you have thru coolant. If so then you definitely want collets as your starting point. Coolant delivery through the collet is very good, smaller the better there. Sidelock holders are better for rigitity but obviously it only fits one tool. I doubt those holders are cheaper than a collet 1 to 1.

Also check out the Haas youtube channel, they have a tip of the day video on holders that has more information than you may expect.