Searching for a tool grinder to neck carbide micro tools
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    Default Searching for a tool grinder to neck carbide micro tools

    Iím finding myself necking or adding to the existing LBS on small carbide micro tools on almost a daily basis. Everything I keep in the drawer seems to be a tiny bit short or way to long. I have been limping along using a Deckel single lip grinder but itís not very consistent (collet runout/general springiness of the stops/manually spinning the collet) and my eyes arenít as good as they used to be for stuff down in the 0.010in range. I would love a benchtop solution but will make something bigger fit if thatís necessary. Based on the requirements below whatís the class of the field for something less than say $15K? I can't drop $100K+ on an Ewag WS11 as cool as it would be.

    ē 1/8Ē and 3mm shanks only
    ē Optical comparator or magnification of some sort
    ē Motorized work-head
    ē Reliable down to 0.010Ē
    ē Some way to get a rotary dresser on it for truing diamond wheels

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    Hi TKassoc:
    I've solved exactly the same problem well enough that I'm pretty happy with it.

    I bought a Sherline headstock, some collets and a four jaw chuck (all tiny) and mounted the headstock on a sine plate.
    I stick it on the surface grinder and mount a 150 grit diamond wheel...standard punch grinding setup you'd use with any spin fixture
    It'll be set up like that for months at a time (I have a second surface grinder so it's no hardship to leave it set up).
    I mounted a cheapo zoom stereo dissecting scope with a super long focal length over it and set up a couple of table stops so I can switch between grinding and inspection quickly.
    Not ideal because I'd like to be able to watch as I grind, but good enough to get me by pretty painlessly


    If I need it dead nuts it'll be clocked in with the 4 jaw (this 4 jaw is 3.1" diameter so it's not like what you find on a full sized lathe).
    If I need it within 0.0005" I pop in either a WW collet or a Morse taper collet (I happen to have both).
    You can also buy Sherline headstocks with ER 11 collet noses.

    For tiny sizes like 0.010" diameter cutters, it pays to put it in the 4 jaw...anything bigger it does not.

    The Sherline is motorized, it's cheap, all the work holding accessories fit without modification, and it works brilliantly.
    Beats necking down a cutter on the Deckel SO any day.
    Now I want to find a diamond wheel with a 45 degree chamfer on one side and a skinny parallel land like maybe 0.040" wide.
    That way I can neck a cutter and chamfer the lead-out at the same time without having to step it with the wheel as I do now.
    My goal is to neck a cutter in a minute or less...that seems reasonable to me.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Maybe Iím missing something but sound like a tool and cutter grinder is what you are looking for? Iíve heard of some with optical comparators or something similar mounted on them aswell. Iím sure there are some way more experienced folks here on the forum that know models and what to look for.

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    Hi Marcus, thanks for your detailed response. I've been considering all sorts of combinations like what you've come up with. My surface grinder is in the other shop far away from the machines that eat up all the tiny tools. I guess what I'm hoping for is a high quality version of the tiny import carbide cutoff machine I already have.
    carbide-cutoff-machine.jpg
    I may just have to buy another one for parts and re-engineer the slides/screws/work-holding to get the precision I'm after.

    Laganos,you are correct that a standard tool grinder like a Monoset, Hybco, etc will do what I'm looking for but they're big. I only need to neck tiny tools so all of the other functions are overkill. Seems like there's a hole in the market for something like this. It would be awfully nice to just buy cheap stub length tools and neck them as needed for the job.

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    The only machine I've heard of that *might* do is big but has the optical capability: a Wickman profile grinder.

    Wickman.jpgwickman.jpg

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    Used to do that with a well tooled Agathon 175 back in the day. Guys that did not have young eyes would just put one of those flip down magnifying lens on their safety glasses. Every screw machine shop had one back in the day. If there are any still around they probably aren't too pricey.

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    Getting closer. Image searching Agathon 175 had me stumble onto the DAMA METEOR MM-12-US dama technologies ag | The ultrasonic specialist for Ultrasonicmachine, Flat grinding machine, Flat grinding machine which has just about everything other than the motorized work-head. I saw their drill grinder years ago but didn't save the website.

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    What is LBS?
    I neck down carbide endmills on a regular SG and a 5C spin fixture.
    One of those small table top surface grinders would work and hold a brake dresser.
    Unsure the need for mounted optical comparator. Wet grind is advised at these diameters.
    To Marcus: any of the wheel makers will make any shape resin wheel you want just draw it up.

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    Hi again TKassoc:
    Are you open at all to the possibility of rolling your own with a Sherline lathe and a tiny toolpost grinder made from a second Sherline headstock mounted on the cross slide.
    It would not be difficult to build, and if you covered the ways to protect them there's no reason it could not be made to work, basically like a tiny cylindrical grinder.
    The size is right and the task is pretty undemanding.

    I happen to like that platform because it's modular and I don't have to build much to get something usable.
    It's also cheap and available...as in a thousand dollars cheap.

    Want a readout on it...Sherline makes them.
    Want a 4 jaw chuck or a 3 jaw chuck...Sherline makes them.
    Need to toss one because you've trashed it...go online and get another tomorrow for a hundred bucks.

    For this application the form factor is almost perfect...18" long, 30 lb, and fits on a bench.

    It'll look like shyte, it'll make the serious machinist laugh their pants off, but it'll WORK.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What is LBS?
    I neck down carbide endmills on a regular SG and a 5C spin fixture.
    One of those small table top surface grinders would work and hold a brake dresser.
    Unsure the need for mounted optical comparator. Wet grind is advised at these diameters.
    Bob: the LBS was referring to Length Below Shank or the necked portion I'm trying to achieve. So it may be technique but I have not had very good luck doing tiny stuff like this on my surface grinder. Are you suggesting something like a Harig motorized 5C on bench top surface grinder? The comparator was just to help pick up the existing shank...Ive seen it on a few dedicated T&C grinders and it looks like it would make picking up an existing shank trivial.



    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi again TKassoc:
    Are you open at all to the possibility of rolling your own with a Sherline lathe and a tiny toolpost grinder made from a second Sherline headstock mounted on the cross slide.
    It would not be difficult to build, and if you covered the ways to protect them there's no reason it could not be made to work, basically like a tiny cylindrical grinder.
    Marcus: I'd much prefer to stand back and spray money on this problem instead of building something right now. Six months ago it would have been a fun project but I have to much real work right now. Funny enough I was considering just getting a tiny cylindrical grinder like Myford to do this. Might have found and answer from Cuttermasters in Canada if it wasn't out of stock. I'll have to see when they're getting more of these--> ER32 Motor Spindle for Shank Reduction / Cut Off – Cuttermasters

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    Following...
    I use a 5c on a Harig grinder now and have a few different wheels but the 5c spindex I have isn't the best or motorized. I was looking for something to handle cut off because shrink + std tools sometimes is an issue but never found anything really nice. I bought something from Cuttermasters and it was a POS. I sent it back lol

    Have you seen the new line of Micro tools from Destiny?
    3 and 4 flute material specific
    3xd,5xd,8xd off the shelf ready to go on 1/4 shanks.

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    Default Searching for a tool grinder to neck carbide micro tools

    Do you guys use coolant when grinding carbide? Iím looking to setup my tc grinder for this Im just concerned with the dust.
    Opinions?

    Edit: pretty sure I cannot easily add flood to my machine. Itís a j&s 310

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    Very handy machine with its own comparator. usually 4 to 10K for a decent one.
    Seneca Falls 25 RO TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER, ROYAL OAK, OPTICAL COMP., MTRZ'D REL. | eBay
    $1000 to $2500 with not the scope.

    OT:
    {Do you guys use coolant when grinding carbide? I’m looking to setup my tc grinder for this Im just concerned with the dust.
    Opinions? Yes, wet diamond wheels last three times longer and make sharper edges..and grind carbide like butter using coolant.

    Not uncommon for Tc grinders to use diamond wheel dry but at the cost of not as sharp edges and faster wheel wear. Bumping any steel beats up a diamond wheel.

    *RE:What IS AN LBS?
    ( QT: LBS on small carbide micro tools on almost a daily basis.] what kind of Micro tools? cutting tools?

    *A photo or reference/link to a catalog photo of small carbide micro tools might be good.

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    Why about adding a cheap microscope to a grinder? Anybody ever done it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Why about adding a cheap microscope to a grinder? Anybody ever done it?
    I used to run a number of jobs with a mounted magnifying glass.
    Amazon.com : high power magnifying glass

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Very handy machine with its own comparator. usually 4 to 10K for a decent one.
    Seneca Falls 25 RO TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER, ROYAL OAK, OPTICAL COMP., MTRZ'D REL. | eBay
    $1000 to $2500 with not the scope.

    OT:
    {Do you guys use coolant when grinding carbide? I’m looking to setup my tc grinder for this Im just concerned with the dust.
    Opinions? Yes, wet diamond wheels last three times longer and make sharper edges..and grind carbide like butter using coolant.

    Not uncommon for Tc grinders to use diamond wheel dry but at the cost of not as sharp edges and faster wheel wear. Bumping any steel beats up a diamond wheel.

    *RE:What IS AN LBS?
    ( QT: LBS on small carbide micro tools on almost a daily basis.] what kind of Micro tools? cutting tools?

    *A photo or reference/link to a catalog photo of small carbide micro tools might be good.
    I was going to suggest the same thing!

    Royal Oak? Grinders

    R-O? Model 814 Grinder

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What is LBS?
    I neck down carbide endmills on a regular SG and a 5C spin fixture.
    One of those small table top surface grinders would work and hold a brake dresser.
    Unsure the need for mounted optical comparator. Wet grind is advised at these diameters.
    To Marcus: any of the wheel makers will make any shape resin wheel you want just draw it up.
    Length Below Shoulder

    $500 for a used manual surface grinder, $100 for a diamond wheel, you're good to go

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    LBS...Length Below Shoulder does not tell much

    Is it the likes of an end mill that needs a reduced diameter somewhere along the shank or to the flute diameter?

    Is the reduced diameter for clearance or for a tool shank circle grind diameter.

    .010 might suggest it is just a reduced diameter not needing close size.

    The Royal Oak has a motorized work head and is stout enough that a brake-dresser can be mounted to an angle plate and be used. Perhaps a 1/4"x6" straight wheel would do for reducing carbide too shanks.
    For this task, it would be better than a surface grinder.

    There may be no need for the scope because with a diamond wheel you get almost the same exact amount of take-off as you dial in with the handwheel dial numbers. Few wheel dressings would be needed because coming straight in run ing wet there would be little wear to the wheel. A digital caliper would be handy if a close size diameter was needed.

    The Royal Oak with using a crushable wheel can make radial relief highly unique HSS cutter ends, and ODs. It can do the same with shaped or dressed diamond wheels for carbide cutters.
    A crusher can be made of even of mild steel and plunged into a crushable AO wheel while both are rotating so the wheel takes the shape.

    I was trained on the RO by one of the machine's designers Mr Nixon (I forgot his first name)
    Royal Oak? Grinders

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    LBS...Length Below Shoulder does not tell much

    Is it the likes of an end mill that needs a reduced diameter somewhere along the shank or to the flute diameter?

    Is the reduced diameter for clearance or for a tool shank circle grind diameter.
    99% of the time I just need more reach on an existing necked tool. I've only had two occasions in the last few years where I needed a relief somewhere up the shank to clear an undercut lip on a pocket.

    .010 might suggest it is just a reduced diameter not needing close size.
    I would like more precision than my existing technique of bluing the neck, plunging until I start to grind, and traversing until I have enough neck. When the neck is only 0.009" in diameter any run-out or over cut is a significant reduction in strength

    The Royal Oak has a motorized work head and is stout enough that a brake-dresser can be mounted to an angle plate and be used. Perhaps a 1/4"x6" straight wheel would do for reducing carbide too shanks.
    For this task, it would be better than a surface grinder.

    There may be no need for the scope because with a diamond wheel you get almost the same exact amount of take-off as you dial in with the handwheel dial numbers. Few wheel dressings would be needed because coming straight in run ing wet there would be little wear to the wheel. A digital caliper would be handy if a close size diameter was needed.
    On the RO it looks like the comparator swings away and doesn't have enough throat to reach around the grinding wheel while in use. Can you see the wheel while it's in contact with the tool your grinding or is it just for checking the form without removing the tool?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dstryr View Post
    Have you seen the new line of Micro tools from Destiny?
    3 and 4 flute material specific
    3xd,5xd,8xd off the shelf ready to go on 1/4 shanks.
    I haven't used any micro tools from Destiny yet but I also only have 4 holders that are even big enough to fit a 1/4" shank...that's a face mill for me 100+ powergrip and shrink HSK40 in 1/8 and 3mm means I'm pretty well set on making it work this way.


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