Seeing if this Fadal is worth a controller upgrade?

Hello. I got a good deal on a 92 Fadal 4020 (at least I thought it was a good deal at $400 to buy it and $1100 to rent a fork lift and put it in my shop). I’m in the process of cleaning it up and seeing what kind of condition it is in to see if it is worth getting the calmotion 527 controller for it.

This will be a garage toy but I’m hoping to make some money with it (I’m mean my tormach 770 paid for its self 3 times over within a year).

So far what I know:

1. The x and y axis have relatively low back lash at 0.0004”.
2. The x axis is seized. I’m thinking a bunch of ball are crushed and I’ll have to replace it (about $1,300 to get a new replacement)
3. It has -2 cpu so i have been told it will suck at 3D machining. Something about not having a fast enough processor to look far enough ahead in the g-code.
4. I stuck my 0.0001” indicator inside the tapered bit of the spindle and I saw vertically no movement (tried it in a few places).


Anything else to look at real hard before I plop down 8.5k for the calmotion???


I ended up getting the Fadal after getting so much advice saying it’s the best machine for a home gamers. I just want some more of your guys previous knowledge and advice...

Thanks,
Jesse

This probably isn't quite the right subforum, but in any case, check out At-Man Unlimited on youtube. He has gone through a Fadal machine, and happens to be a friend of mine.

YouTube

Upgrading the control to the -4 config is the cheapest rout to take.

I have a 1991 machine that is upgraded to -4 config and is very adequate. 3D contouring is more than adequate for most applications.

If your running a home shop spend your money on upgrading to the -4, or even -5 if your feeling spendy. There's a few people on the facebook fadal site that have upgraded to Calmotion controls and seem to be pleased with the results. The downside to the Calmotion and the other retrofits is that 4th and 5th axis cards add to the cost of the base control.

Jesse_92683 said:

Hello. I got a good deal on a 92 Fadal 4020 (at least I thought it was a good deal at $400 to buy it and $1100 to rent a fork lift and put it in my shop). I’m in the process of cleaning it up and seeing what kind of condition it is in to see if it is worth getting the calmotion 527 controller for it.

This will be a garage toy but I’m hoping to make some money with it (I’m mean my tormach 770 paid for its self 3 times over within a year).

So far what I know:

1. The x and y axis have relatively low back lash at 0.0004”.
2. The x axis is seized. I’m thinking a bunch of ball are crushed and I’ll have to replace it (about $1,300 to get a new replacement)
3. It has -2 cpu so i have been told it will suck at 3D machining. Something about not having a fast enough processor to look far enough ahead in the g-code.
4. I stuck my 0.0001” indicator inside the tapered bit of the spindle and I saw vertically no movement (tried it in a few places).


Anything else to look at real hard before I plop down 8.5k for the calmotion???


I ended up getting the Fadal after getting so much advice saying it’s the best machine for a home gamers. I just want some more of your guys previous knowledge and advice...

Thanks,
Jesse

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heres the way I would do it

1st get the x axis unlocked, could be ball screw but more than likely the ways are caked with chips probably from running water or thin coolant.
get all the axis moving freely. watch for loose or missing turcite only because you got a locked up axis is why I mention it.
make sure your oilers are working
run it for a few parts after that ie spindle everything.

2nd replace all your thrust bearings. cheap easy and fast and makes a huge difference.

then make sure the machine runs good adjust gibbs x y and z tune drives make sure spindle is good etc etc.

run it for a while, then if it works good chnge the control if you want to. why waste a ton of money into a control only to find out you have major problems elseware that will cost an arm and leg.

then if your happy with it buy a new control.
Also I dont think a 91 had rigid tap so check that out as well.

Delw said:

Also I dont think a 91 had rigid tap so check that out as well.

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91 didn't have rigid tap, but it's an easy retrofit assuming you have the right spindle card that will accept the rigid tap eproms, and a spindle motor that has the exterior shaft to drive the encoder.

triumph406 said:

91 didn't have rigid tap, but it's an easy retrofit assuming you have the right spindle card that will accept the rigid tap eproms, and a spindle motor that has the exterior shaft to drive the encoder.

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it also adds into the cost. hence my point before he adds a control. make sure everything works 1st. you can spend a ton of money fixing up a fadal. There good strong machines that you can get parts for and extremely easy to work on.

if those ways are good, he's got a good machine to rebuild, if not part it out and buy one with good ways. before updating anything.

Delw

I’m still in the process of testing it down and looking at it but The ways look decent (at least to my untrained eye). I thought the ballscrew was what was causing the x axis to be seized but it’s actually just the bearing on the motor side. I don’t know what kind of bearing it is (I though there is a thrust bearing but is there also a roller bearing there?). Once I unbolted the ballscrew bearing housing I noticed that the ball screw but spins freely with out any bad noises coming from it and the bearing housing is won’t spins around the disconnected ballscrew. Now if only I can figure out how to get he damn nut off (not the nut with the ball bearings but the nut that attaches the ballscrew with the motor coupling housing).

Ill post some pictures later tonight...

Jesse_92683 said:

Now if only I can figure out how to get he damn nut off (not the nut with the ball bearings but the nut that attaches the ballscrew with the motor coupling housing).

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I think every ballscrew in every one of my machines has flats ground on them so that I could
grab them to get that damn nut off..

They are just thrust bearings, go to any Fadal place, $50 or $80 a set or something.. And
then makes sure you set them properly. They aren't matched sets, though I hear they have been
coming with the correct shim size needed. The difference between slop and rapid bearing
failure is only a couple thou..

Check your motor and ballscrew couplings while you are in there.. Its one little tiny
1/4"-20 set screw that pushes on the key way, and if the key way is damaged you can
get slop in there too.. I've got several that have extra 3/8" set screws in them..

And then once you do the thrust bearings, and get them set right (no slop on the end
of the screw).. Go set the backlash again.. And do it RIGHT!!!!!! The way it says
to do it in the manual, with the program and everything.. The one thing I do different
from the manual, I use a pin (endmill shank if you have to) in the spindle and my indicator
on a mag base.

Never hurts to have a spare set of thrust bearings, they really are a maintenance item.

Very good info, thanks. I allied fadalcnc.com and they said that I’ll just have to use large channel locks and an impact driver to loosen the nut. I was worried about doing this (as I already did and it chewed up the surprisingly soft ballscrew) but apparently the ballscrew nut never actually reaches the end of th ballscrew so it doesn’t matter if it gets a little chewed up (although I still don’t like it.

Is there anywhere I can find a good rundown of what exactly you gain upgrading from -2 to -4 boards?
I'm thinking about this upgrade myself and I would like to know the exact benefits.

From what I have read on PM and in the manuals, I think the upgrade at least gives you the following:

• 32K to max 422K memory on controller (you have to buy additional 1460 expansion boards to actually get this memory)
• "Better" surfacing and HSM/complex toolpath motion (from increased lookahead? faster block processing?)
• additional menu-driven utilities?
• faster/more reliable baud speed for program upload and DNC? (I cannot reliably transfer/DNC above 4800 baud on my -2 system)

I'm not really sure whether this is a comprehensive or accurate list, though...

carbonbl said:

Is there anywhere I can find a good rundown of what exactly you gain upgrading from -2 to -4 boards?
I'm thinking about this upgrade myself and I would like to know the exact benefits.

From what I have read on PM and in the manuals, I think the upgrade at least gives you the following:

• 32K to max 422K memory on controller (you have to buy additional 1460 expansion boards to actually get this memory)
• "Better" surfacing and HSM/complex toolpath motion (from increased lookahead? faster block processing?)
• additional menu-driven utilities?
• faster/more reliable baud speed for program upload and DNC? (I cannot reliably transfer/DNC above 4800 baud on my -2 system)

I'm not really sure whether this is a comprehensive or accurate list, though...

Click to expand...

You won't get better surfacing, it'll be the same, just a LOT faster. You could run HSM toolpaths with the -2 config, only upto a certain (slow) feedrate though.

I think the -4 config allows you to page thru menus using the space bar, not sure what else.

Baud rates will be higher, I think on the -4 I have the baud rate at 38400.

Have you checked that the boards are -2 and not a higher config?

I have checked all the boards on my 92 machine. It definitely looks like it’s all stock –2 stuff. Here are some pictures of my Ways. The ballscrews look to be pretty smooth spinning. It’s just my x axis thrust bearing that is seized, and I’m still trying to figure out how to get that damn nut off.

Reviving this thread just to add info for future visitors:

By far the easiest way to get the thrust bearing retaining nut off the ballscrew is with an impact wrench. Buy a cheap 1/2" pneumatic impact wrench (I got a chicago pneumatic for under $100) and an impact rated socket that's the right size for the retaining nut.

You don't need to grind flats on the ballscrew for a spanner or anything, just hang onto the ballscrew with one hand and take the nut off using the impact wrench in the other hand. The nut will come right off with just a few hits from the impact wrench.

This is my normal procedure for changing a thrust bearing on a Fadal:
- Unbolt the thrust bearing mount from the machine frame
- Slide the axis away from the mount location by hand a little so you can get access to the backside of the thrust mount
- Remove the servo mount from the thrust mount
- Remove the servo coupler from the ballscrew by undoing the set-screw and then pulling it off with a gear puller
- Undo the bolts that hold the thrust bearing retainer cap onto the thrust bearing mount
- Use a rubber mallet to *gently* tap the thrust bearing mount loose (toward the ball-nut), alternate sides and work it off the bearings so it's hanging on the ballscrew, make sure not to ding anything
- Use the gear puller again to pull the old thrust bearings off the end of the ballscrew
- Remove the thrust bearing mount and retainer cap from the machine
- Remove the old seals from the thrust bearing mount and retainer cap. If the bearings are bad it's likely the seals are bad too, they are cheap so replace them!
- Clean all mating surfaces on the ballscrew, thrust mount, retainer cap, etc...
- Fit new seals into the thrust mount and retaining cap, use a small piece of wood and a rubber mallet to drive them into their housings
- Heat the thrust bearing mount plate with a propane torch until the bearings are a light slip fit into their seat
- Put the bearings in position in the thrust mount, making sure the preload shim is in between them
- Fasten the bearing retainer cap onto the thrust mount ensuring equal torque is used for all 4 bolts
- Allow the heat from the thrust mount to heat the bearings until they are a light slip fit onto the ballscrew, a little extra heat may be needed but make sure not to damage the seals with the propane torch
- Slide the assembled thrust mount with bearings onto the end of the ballscrew, welding gloves are a must to handle the parts as they're hot
- Thread on the bearing retainer nut and drive it into place with a few hits from the impact wrench
- Most of the servo couplers are also a shrink fit so heat it a little to get it to slide onto the end of the ballscrew if it won't fit when cold. Make sure to tighten the set-screw well
- Re-attach the servo mount to the thrust mount
- Slide the axis by hand so the thrust mount is up against the machine frame, bolt everything back into place
- Done!

First time doing this is will likely take around 3-4 hours if you're being careful and making sure to clean everything as you go. After you've done it the first time the whole operation is more like 60-90 minutes.

I like the thrust bearing replacement kits from ITSCNC.com as they are reasonably priced plus they come with good quality bearings, new seals, a correctly sized preload shim and the bearings are pre-packed with grease as well so all the guess-work is taken out of the process.

Hope this helps someone in the future!
-Aaron

aarongough said:

SNIP......

I like the thrust bearing replacement kits from ITSCNC.com as they are reasonably priced plus they come with good quality bearings, new seals, a correctly sized preload shim and the bearings are pre-packed with grease as well so all the guess-work is taken out of the process.

Hope this helps someone in the future!
-Aaron

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I must be simple because I cannot find them on the website.

Cole2534 said:

I must be simple

Click to expand...

Welllll

Here's the link mate!

VMC15 thru 4020: https://itscnc.com/bearings/bearing-block-rebuild-kit-x-y-z-vmc15-thru-4020-inch.html
2216 thru 5020: https://itscnc.com/bearings/bearing-block-rebuild-kit-x-y-z-2216-thru-5020a-mm.html

They are listed on the 2nd page of the 'bearings and kits' section, I find it a little hard to find things on their website too sometimes. Especially without coffee!

-A

aarongough said:

Welllll

Here's the link mate!

VMC15 thru 4020: Buy Bearing Block Rebuild Kit XYZ VMC15 4020 Inch, BRG-KIT-1 | ITS
2216 thru 5020: Buy Bearing Block Rebuild Kit XYZ 2216 5020A MM, BRG-KIT-2 | ITS

They are listed on the 2nd page of the 'bearings and kits' section

-A

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That's what I figured but it didn't say thrust bearing....I gotta stop over thinkin it.

Cole2534 said:

That's what I figured but it didn't say thrust bearing....I gotta stop over thinkin it.

Click to expand...

Nah that's a pretty reasonable thought actually! Would be much cleared if it actually said 'thrust bearing' on there...

You cant bea the 527f. Gobs of memory and no speed limit. Cut at your rapid speed. The only limitation is 10k rpm. A 15k rpm spindle machine would be great with a 527f but even a general job shop with a very practical capital limit for machinery would improve setup time if they could put every stinking program in the cpu.