Seeking Advice, Garage Mill for Prototype and Short Run Production? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    All depends on the previous usage. Buy one of the ones from Freds and you can expect low cost for many years. Buy one pretty painted from a dealer and you never know.
    This is something I would consider heavily. You have a contributing forum member selling machines with detailed inspections, good pictures, and the new owners of his other machines have mentioned the whole process was great.

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  3. #22
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    I have a 1991 4020 that will need Turcite in the not to distant future

    If it was I'd look for a linear guide machine, the linear could be rusty, balls missing from the trucks, it'd be about a long weekend to replace and realign all the guides. A boxway machine is a much bigger proposition to fix.

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  5. #23
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    As a price guide on the fadal owners group on FB, somebody showed a picture of a recent 4020, with a TR65 4th/5th rotary, which they say they paid $16.4k including delivery. I don't know the circumstances but that's a pretty reasonable price.

    Josh Ketron - New to us today!!! Now to clean and fix any... | Facebook

  6. #24
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    Don't forget you need enough funds to tool it up too, thats either jigs and fixtures or a few K on multi station vises, then you got tool holder and cutters. Going new vices your easily in the 3-5K range depending on how many of your parts you want to try and get on the table. Even going jigs and fixtures you need the money for tooling and stuff and its still going to need a couple of K in spindle tooling. Then add in another 1-2K for transport - rigging, another 1-2k if your buying a phase converter, hence with a 30K budget, your really only got circa 25K or so to spend on the mill.

    IMHO your right about tool changer, being able to set it up and let it run whilst you do something else is great in a single person operation. its really easy to just have it all on and just pop out there for 5 minutes and reload it, even during adds whilst watching a film etc, key is getting lots of bits on the table so you have plenty of time to do other stuff between such reloads.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhrider123 View Post
    My thoughts with the ATC is (and this is probably a terrible habit, but I'm likely to do it anyways) I can load the stock, press "play" and walk away. Either using that freedom to package products for shipping, or spend time in the house with the family.

    I totally understand an ATC is not a need,
    IMO, an ATC is a very big need. Sure, you'll get the occasional stray person here saying it's no biggie to stand in front of the machine and tend to the tools, but pay no attention to them.

    Your thoughts on being able to do other tasks while parts run is exactly why you need the ATC. As a one man show it helps so much to get a couple things done at the same time.

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  10. #26
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    An ATC won't put the wrong tool in because it wasn't paying attention. If you don't get one you will regret it every time you run any production.

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  12. #27
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    Buying a milling machine without an ATC would raise the question as to why you would even buy a CNC. If you cut the ATC out of the equation, then you have to be able to answer 'is it worth my time to even program this, or should I just run it manually'. If it's really worth the time to program so it can run on its own, then it's going to be worth it to have an ATC so it can run on its own as much as possible. Nothing sucks more than owning a CNC that you have to stand in front of to change tools on. You might as well be cranking handles.

    Also note that the kind of machines that don't offer ATC's are usually garbage. Bridgeports with CNC retrofits, Tormachs, real budget machines. They don't just skimp on the ATC, they skimp on everything.

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  14. #28
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    I have a 1997 Fadal VMC15-XT with extended Z , I have been kicking around about selling , I Ordered it new and have been the only one to run it , It spent most of its life doing R&D and tool & die work. The last few years it has been dedicated to one part but its only been needed a few days a month so I have swapped the part over to one of the other mills. I have a lot of tooling that could go with it also , (the newer mills need Balanced holders )

    I`m over in Poulsbo WA ( hour west of seattle )

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  16. #29
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    dhrider,

    I assume you have no ceiling issues? My shop is under my house, so I have limited height available. I currently have a Haas SMM in here, and careful placement was necessary because when homing the machine on startup, the Z has to go up between floor joists. It's a 2006 SMM, so still a 10" Z machine, btw. I guess my point being, make sure to take note of the overall height when the Z is as far up as it will go.

    Also, I'm running a PhasePerfect phase converter (it's been running perfectly since the day I bought it... about 8 years ago). It's a 10hp model, and even though the SMM is 15hp, I never get anywhere near drawing that kind of power. A 70A single-phase breaker feeds the PhasePerfect. I can easily have the Haas running and also be working on my Mori engine lathe, with no issues. The PhasePerfect will handle 300% overload for 4 seconds (I think I have those numbers correct), so startup current draw is never an issue.

    As someone else pointed out, tooling costs for a CNC mill can be substantial. You might consider "working backwards", and estimating all the tooling you might want up front and then see what's left.

    Good luck with your project!

    PM

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    another question for you is have you looked into getting an up to date 200 amp service run into your place? when I was looking at opening up in my garage I was trying to figure out what the max amount of juice I could bring in here without all the questions. My plan since I had 3 phase running by the place was to separate the house and make it into 2 units and bring in (2) 200 amp panels and then split juice between units and a secret run out to the garage. never ended up persuing that option but don't let power requirements short you on machine choice. as others have stated if you are a little greener and have the budget do yourself a favor and buy a machine with a well documented history and buy from the end user not a dealer.

  18. #31
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    Fadals do not need a phase perfect , I have ran Fadals and Haas mills for years off of rotary converters and they don`t care ... you only need
    50 amps of single phase ..

  19. #32
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    Rather timely thread, I may be on the same hunt!

    Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk

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    It is in your best interests to try and find a machine local (in Washington) such as D.D.machine described. Rigging/transportation is much easier to deal with when you can avoid interstate moving. Also, much easier to post back here and ask your fellow Washington-staters for recommended rigging companies. And don't cheap out on moving expense; if a machine is in good working order and running before it ships, you want it to arrive that way.

    And make sure the location where you place the machine is suitable to take the weight. Fadal 3016 weighs 8,500lbs and 4020 is 10,500lbs.

    RE: The Fadal from CL: I always defer to the gurus on here Bobw, Speedie, et.al. However, I'm fairly certain that is not a Heavy Duty Fadal - the heavy weights usually had odd table sizes (like the two 3020s we have or a 4525) and side mount tool changers IIRC. Most likely it is a High Torque machine.

    Can't see why you shouldn't be able to obtain copy of survey given the stellar comments about the machine being in new spec - would be a real selling point. And that survey or evaluation should have the 'ON' and 'RUN' hours (time powered up and machining respectively) as it's a simple inquiry from the keyboard. If that wasn't done, being buttoned up and no longer powered, your only hope would be if the machine has an external hour meter.

    Bit OT...thanks to all who have mentioned the machines we are selling; I and folks here at my company appreciate it.

    Fred

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  22. #34
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    As others have said, the budget allocation for the other-than-machine costs are serious. I just bought a new mill, the first for my company and am tooling up for it. I think I’m at $12,000 for:

    Rigging, 3D taster, phase perfect, buck transformer, 16 tool holders, general (and pretty minimal) aluminum and steel tooling, two single station vises, pallet jaws and pallets for the vises, very basic measuring and setup tools, refractometer, deburring tools, CAD/CAM software (Fusion 360, I think as cheap as it gets), air filtration and a small machine-dedicated air compressor.

    This is all bought to run the machine I picked and make the parts I produce for myself. If you get a single phase machine you save a lot of coin on the phase conversion but limit yourself to a number of machine types that you can likely count on your hand. Haas MiniMill 1/2, Haas toolroom mill 1/2/3, Fadals are the picks I know of.

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    hard to beat a Fadal for the money
    want to stay 93 and newer
    ran one for a while off a 40hp rpc.
    yes you can get them under a standard garage door header
    you want the 88 control

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    IMO, an ATC is a very big need. Sure, you'll get the occasional stray person here saying it's no biggie to stand in front of the machine and tend to the tools, but pay no attention to them.
    I said I expected him to ignore it ...

    Your thoughts on being able to do other tasks while parts run is exactly why you need the ATC. As a one man show it helps so much to get a couple things done at the same time.
    Bullshit. I've run five - six if you count the hacksaw - machines at a time while changing tools. Not every one at top efficiency but it certainly can be done.

    As a startup who doesn't even know if his business is going to survive (most do not) that was something to think about. But hey, money grows on trees for you guys.

    What you really need, rider 123, is a new Makino horizontal. Preferably with at least six pallets. You can finance it no prob. Just take out a second on the house. And maybe a third.

    From a machining aspect, of course you'd like the brand-newiest coolest thing you can pay for. But from the point of starting a business with unknown prospects, I can tell you about overspending up front and wishing like hell that I had some of that money back six months later. All I wanted to say was, go easy on the checkbook until you have a little history. You can always trade up later if things go good.

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  26. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    Fadals do not need a phase perfect , I have ran Fadals and Haas mills for years off of rotary converters and they don`t care ... you only need
    50 amps of single phase ..
    For about $800 you can just buy a single phase transformer for a Fadal, and skip
    all that rotary non-sense.... I ran rotary's for a while until real 3-phase
    could be brought in, and it sucked... They ran the machines fine, but they aren't
    the quietest things, they suck power($$$), one more thing to break, one more thing to
    turn on and off...

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    I went with a TM2P for my garage. I have a small company that is gaining some traction and I decided I needed to bring the machining in house. It also allows me to prototype quickly. I'm and a mechanical engineer in my day job and run my business in the evenings and weekends. Here are a few things that weighted my decisions...

    Power: I have a 50a sub panel in my garage. Cost of a PP was high and having a rotary running all the time wasnt appealing to me. I wanted a single phase machine

    Old/New: Buying and older machine didnt scare me. I can fix anything... but it boils down to time. I may get lucky and find a gem but I wanted something that I knew I could focus on maching and not fixing. I have a wife and two kids so my side business time can be limiting.

    Control: Im new to CNC and the Haas control is very intuitive. Haas connect is nice to monitor remotely. I plan on loading parts in the morning and have it cut during the day.

    Options: I was on a budget so I forcused on options that have to be installed at the factory vs later. I went with a 20 pocket tool changer over the auger. I'll scoop chips for now. I can add the auger later where a 10 pocket cant be exchanged for a 20. I also got the probe, p-cool, and hp coolant.

    Resale Value: Used TM/MM are out there but they hold value well. This is something for me to learn on and grow. When I get to that point, I can sell this machine for a good price and pick up bigger/faster machines in my own shop and not the garage.

    Good Luck
    -Phil

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

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  30. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I have a 1997 Fadal VMC15-XT with extended Z , I have been kicking around about selling , I Ordered it new and have been the only one to run it , It spent most of its life doing R&D and tool & die work. The last few years it has been dedicated to one part but its only been needed a few days a month so I have swapped the part over to one of the other mills. I have a lot of tooling that could go with it also , (the newer mills need Balanced holders )

    I`m over in Poulsbo WA ( hour west of seattle )
    This would be my first stop.

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  32. #40
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    Default fadal on cl

    Of course local first, but I did see this in my neck of the woods n.cal

    Fadal 15xt 1997 - tools - by owner - sale

    And I don't think you would even need a transformer. Many people have gotten the fadal running on single phase.
    you do loose about 1/3 of the spindle power doing but will
    get you going.


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