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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    The first step in drying is generally done by the receiver (tank). Then any other dryer would go after the receiver. Putting a refrigerated dryer before the receiver will not generally work as well because the air is still pretty hot at that point. The receiver gives the air a place to cool some and give up a bunch of moisture for free then the dryer does its job after that. If you want to put the dryer before the receiver it's probably best to put an air cooler (radiator with a fan and drain) between the compressor and the dryer.
    Well shit. I really wanted to stay out of this because it's like big-endian vs small-endian. But this is all exactly the opposite of what I want to do. I will say that in practice, in at least one situation, the method above worked much worse (from the standpoint of having dry air) than the receiver-right-after-pressor method. It was cheaper, but that wasn't my goal.

    I will try to avoid the subject in future so this is it :

    1) I don't want to store wet air. I realize this is cheaper but I don't want to rust out the receiver and even more important do not want to put rust particles into that air, which I will later have to filter out. One of the important points of the method ^ is that the receiver acts as a dump tank. Air + water = rust. Thank you very much but I do not want rust.

    2) The other point is, having the refrigerator work on cold air is cheaper. Yes, that's true. It's cheaper because it isn't doing anything. That's not what I bought the damned thing for. Refrigeration works to dry air by creating a termperature drop. I want the driest air the soonest in the system I can get it. I put that sucker smack-ass right out of the compressor at the shortest hottest possible point. This is not the cheapest way to do it. But if I wanted to save money I'da bought tax-free municipal bonds, not a machine shop.

    So, that's the Other Side of the drier debate But ime, 100* weather day and night, air like a steam bath, 3 shifts, Sullair screw, drier downstream gave wet air and problems. Drier-after-squsher, before-receiver gave happy machines and oodles more uptime. We also had to put in a holy pipe thing for a drain because we were getting so much water that it was creating a mosquito breeding pond.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw
    Maybe, or Maybe not.. He needs to pull a permit, that's not free...
    A permit ? For running four wires twenty feet down a wall ? Are you people insane ?

    wtf is wrong with the US ?


    One unsolicited observation on electric - on smaller machines like this I always used that heavy yellow four-lead extension cord stuff and Hubbel plugs to a socket on the wall. That way if I got a bug up my butt change was easy. 25,000-pounders don't get moved much but on smaller machines I like to rearrange the furniture.

    Bus duct is the coolest but you wanna talk $$$$ In my imaginary machine shop with the thousand Swiss cabinets a place for everything and everything in its place, no coolant mist, magic oil in the shapers that never creates a mess, shiny bright paint that we retouch the scratches on weekly, and big-boobed bimbos in bikinis running the machines, everything is on bus duct

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    A permit ? For running four wires twenty feet down a wall ? Are you people insane ?

    wtf is wrong with the US ?
    We are talking about California but I don’t think you actually need a permit.

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    The electrician made it sound like a permit was optional, the kind of thing that larger businesses do for record keeping. I don't think there is any permit required by law to run a cable from the wall behind the machine to the top of the electrical cabinet. I would only need a permit if I was running a new line from the utility pole into the building.

    By that logic, if it does require a permit, I guess we all need to start applying for permits every time we plug in a vacuum or a toaster.

  5. #84
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    I would be paying 4 thousand dollars for what is essentially a heavy but short extension cord. I think I'll order a disconnect online for 122 dollars and buy the wires and pipe at a local Home Depot for a few hundred total.
    Just make sure you do it right...


    As for pricing, in 2007 when things were still BOOMING with new houses, looked to get 3 phase put in, quotes were
    around 14k, except for one guy that showed up half drunk in a rusted out K-car with a ladder on the roof and quoted
    $8k, but only if he got half in cash at that very moment. (Why don't we have a *middle finger* smiley?)

    Waited for the financial world to burn to the ground, and reputable electricians came down. It was $8k, from
    a REAL electrician. And about 2/3 of that was wire, a giant panel, and some big breakers.. He also dealt with
    the electric company, pulled the permit, called dig-safe and dealt with the inspectors etc...

    The only thing I had to do was write a check, and shut all the machines down real quick when he hit a natural gas
    line trenching across the parking lot. Residential can be above ground, but commercial/industrial has to be under
    ground for some reason.

    Its not hard to do, I think its easier than house wiring by far, I find it less complicated... Just
    do it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    \
    2) The other point is, having the refrigerator work on cold air is cheaper. Yes, that's true. It's cheaper because it isn't doing anything. That's not what I bought the damned thing for. Refrigeration works to dry air by creating a termperature drop. I want the driest air the soonest in the system I can get it. I put that sucker smack-ass right out of the compressor at the shortest hottest possible point. This is not the cheapest way to do it. But if I wanted to save money I'da bought tax-free municipal bonds, not a machine shop.
    What you are missing is that a refrigeration device will be rated to cool X degrees. Lets say it is rated to drop the temp 40 deg. Start with 200deg wind up with 160 deg. This means 160 degree dew point out of the dryer and you will still condense water in the receiver. To do what you want you will need a much larger refrigerated dryer than otherwise.

    This is not just the way it is done on cheapie installs. I have been involved with some big air systems and this is how I have seen it done.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    Just make sure you do it right...


    As for pricing, in 2007 when things were still BOOMING with new houses, looked to get 3 phase put in, quotes were
    around 14k, except for one guy that showed up half drunk in a rusted out K-car with a ladder on the roof and quoted
    $8k, but only if he got half in cash at that very moment. (Why don't we have a *middle finger* smiley?)

    Waited for the financial world to burn to the ground, and reputable electricians came down. It was $8k, from
    a REAL electrician. And about 2/3 of that was wire, a giant panel, and some big breakers.. He also dealt with
    the electric company, pulled the permit, called dig-safe and dealt with the inspectors etc...

    The only thing I had to do was write a check, and shut all the machines down real quick when he hit a natural gas
    line trenching across the parking lot
    . Residential can be above ground, but commercial/industrial has to be under
    ground for some reason.

    Its not hard to do, I think its easier than house wiring by far, I find it less complicated... Just
    do it right.



    So he called dig safe and still hit a gas pipe? Fail.
    If 2/3 of your job cost is materials, you at least know you're getting most of your moneys worth.

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  9. #87
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    Permit requirements vary by task and jurisdiction.

    Some places may require a licensed person to do said work.in our corner of ca anyone can do work at their place.

    Permit not required unless TOTAL all categories added cost is $500.00 or more.

    So $499.99 of parts and one penny labor requires a permit.

    However the permit includes the services of the inspector and many can be helpful in working your design.

    Given this is commercial a permit is highly suggested simply due to liability concerns.

    Take photos of your panel and route for conduit to machine and take your machine data sheet to the local inspectors office.

    They can suggest correct wire size and breaker size as it may not be obvious depending on duty cycle and local code requirements.

    From this you can price out the materials yourself and have an understanding to any quotes.

    Ask for itemized quotes so you can compare to what you learned.

    You may just do the work yourself based on what the inspector advises and they inspect it to make sure it is correct.


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    So he called dig safe and still hit a gas pipe? Fail.
    If 2/3 of your job cost is materials, you at least know you're getting most of your moneys worth.
    They had no clue it was there, THERE IS NO RECORD OF THAT GAS LINE... The gas company was sold and a few
    years ago, the folks behind me were having a gas line run to their place.. There is an easement on the outside
    of my fence for utilities. fiber optics run through there.. So the gas guys are out there, and I went out to
    tell them that there is a gas line there. YES, they did the dig safe thing, and AGAIN, they didn't mark the gas
    line....

    The guys digging the trench for the gas line were so happy that they got to tie into a line a little quicker...
    Saved them about 80 feet of digging by hand trying not to cut a fiber optic line.

    It is NOT supposed to be there. Last summer the neighbor called dig-safe for something he was doing.. They
    marked out the gas line running all the way to the road, it doesn't, it stops at the corner of the fence,
    then runs across my parking lot and down my driveway.. So Nobody has cared to update where the actual gas line
    is. I really don't care, as long as they don't blow my shop up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    They had no clue it was there,
    You got PG&E back there, too ? Or did they move San Bruno ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    ... To do what you want you will need a much larger refrigerated dryer than otherwise.

    This is not just the way it is done on cheapie installs. I have been involved with some big air systems and this is how I have seen it done.
    Totally. Not gonna argue over it. Both sides have an opinion and reasons to back them up. I just personally prefer Plan B and explained why above.

    (I will admit that this is an extreme environment. Both heat and humidity are beyond sanity here for a good three months of the year. So it's quite likely what did not work for us would be fine in a temperate climate like Houston.

    But you're never going to get around the fact that you're storing water in a steel tank. Rust she never sleeps )

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    I realized I had wasted a lot of time and effort, and money in starting with a small piston compressor, then upgrading a few times, to eventually buying an Atlas Copco screw 7.5HP with integrated drier and a 200L tank . One Haas VF2 cnc. I get: 38 seconds on, 6 minutes total cycle (sometimes down to 5.5 minutes depending on how may tool changes were running in the program at the time). The piston ones were creating too much moisture in the air and were really a false economy. One big problem with the cnc due to water and you are calling your HFO (in my case) and the labour and parts bill alone could buy you a screw compressor if you couple that with a few piston compressors and upgrades - or at least go a long way towards that.

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  15. #91
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    We bought that HF air dryer due to the pretty good reviews, for a light duty setting in a high school robotics lab (running a VF-4, air shear, and general air tool/shop air use). Total piece of junk. Broke within a few weeks. Union between some brazed tubes blew out. We threw it out and went with an actual good unit.

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    I have a shop with 4 CNC's about 10 years ago went with Kaser SX7 120 gal tank and Kaeser drier, best thing ever wish I have done it sooner.

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    I just got the quote on a Kaeser 5c air tower, came in at around $8,500. So it would probably cost close to $10,000 to put on the floor wired with taxes and everything. That's really hard to justify for a 5 horsepower compressor that only needs to run one VMC....

    But I did come across a different type of compressor that hasn't been mentioned on this thread much; scroll compressors. Look at this page:
    Eastwood QST-3�/6� Quiet Scroll Air Compressor

    Based on these numbers, it's at the same loudness as a screw compressor and can run 100% duty cycle. The thing I like about it is that it doesn't need oil or maintenance (supposedly) and it shuts off at max pressure; the screw compressors without VFDs just keep running and wasting power.

    Does anyone here have experience with scroll compressors in the shop? I'll probably go with one of these unless someone has had a bad experience with them.

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    "it shuts off at max pressure; the screw compressors without VFDs just keep running and wasting power."
    Wonder where you got this from? Mine shuts off when it hits 130 PSI

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    The advatage of drier before storage is you simply have a given max flow known from the compressor to work with. Post tank you have to go bigger to account for the storage - surge use. Theres no free ride, buy a smaller drier and work it harder of a larger drier that has to work less and a auto drain on the receiver tank that plugs up with corrosion products.

    As for piston pumps makeing more water, don't be stupid, piston, vane, worm or scroll will all extract a given amount of water only based on how damp the feed air is, none make water, they all just extract it out of the same incoming air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    The thing I like about it is that it doesn't need oil or maintenance (supposedly) and it shuts off at max pressure; the screw compressors without VFDs just keep running and wasting power.
    My Atlas Copco GX5 shuts off once it's reached shutoff pressure ... sort of. It has a run-on timer that has the machine run an extra few minutes after pumping up, to ensure that any moisture in the system has boiled off. But that is not the same as "just keeps running".

    I'm going to add a 2nd receiver to reduce the cost of that run-on. Currently it runs on for ~6 minutes, but only takes 1.5 minutes to pump the 53 gallon tank up, so there is a lot of wasted runtime.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    As for piston pumps makeing more water, don't be stupid, piston, vane, worm or scroll will all extract a given amount of water only based on how damp the feed air is, none make water, they all just extract it out of the same incoming air.
    Well, sort of. Typical 2-stage piston compressors go up to around 175 PSI, while screw compressors are more like 130 PSI. You will get a lot more water out of the air going from 130 to 175.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Note on dryers: I doubt the $300 desiccant types from McmMaster will keep up with much water production. That type is probably better used as a second stage to get really dry air. My Quincy QPNC-25 drier works well but it’s a little annoying as it turns on and off every 20 seconds to keep the inside at 37 degrees when air is not flowing (it’s pretty quiet but still). A better setup would be a large dry tank and the dryer only runs when filling it up, but it’s not annoying me so bad I’m going to do all that.

    It would seem the higher pressure (175) “creating” more water would be a good thing as the dryer won’t have to work as hard. I really wish they would make deadbands adjustable on these things. Like and air conditioner. I can handle +/-5 degrees from setpoint but the thing is set to turn on and off +/-2 which effectively comes out to it turning on and off all the time.

    I run air into my machine electronics cabinet (my first attempt to reduce temperatures in my no A/C Texas shop). When the RH get up near 50% I kick it on. It gets down to 25% so the air is fairly dry post Quincy dryer.

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    I'm officially requesting a job application for Emmanuel's "imaginary machine shop" in post #81, thank you very much!


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