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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I've tried for several years, to make a point. Attachment 239794
    ROTFL (nearly splinters in my face).

    The "On the spectrum"-ish type "Resilience" to information at all costs is not entirely uncommon but still begs the question... Why?

    It must be nice to have your own private "Reality tunnel" and get paid for that.


    At least no one could say you didn't try lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    many a time i have used a diamond on a aluminum oxide grinding wheel it normally acts duller and gives a different finer grit finish. basically it is dulling the sharper points sticking out the most. on a bench grinder if you use a star wheel to true the grinding wheel it will grind a courser finish than if a diamond is used. when a grinding wheel pores are clogging it basically is too much bue or built up edge sticking to wheel rather than breaking off as the wheel abrasive breaks off. a ceramic milling inserts basically is a single point grinding wheel in the shape of a insert. carbide inserts can act in some ways similar to ceramic inserts
    No a properly applied diamond does not dull the points, it knocks off thoes sticking out. Its the same as taking a milling cutter with the inserts all at diffrent heights and then clocking them in to the same plane, you really need to spend some time on a grinder with some one that knows what there doing, A clogged grinding wheel is not BUE, its more akin to a milling cutter with flutes full of metal. Diffrent cause and effect, generally if you run a grinding wheel slower and harder its actually less inclinded to clog and acts softer, please go over to the abrasives section and learn some of this shit, its all there and then you may finally start to see why anyone that grinds views anyone with a mill on a par with how a fine wood worker with a nice bench plane views a chainsaw carver!

    And dont get me started on the precision fucking oil stone crowd, i have friends who use to do crystal and optical components and they would damn near bludgeon you to death with that semi flat blunt lap your calling a precision truing stone. if you want flat its not all that hard to achive, but a diamond ground oil stone is not going to do you any favors.

    If you want to discus flat bellow what a tenths indicator shows, your into optical flats, just be warned, they can't be cheated, its either flat or a proverbial mountain range when you start playing in light waves and theirs no hiding it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    No a properly applied diamond does not dull the points, it knocks off thoes sticking out. Its the same as taking a milling cutter with the inserts all at diffrent heights and then clocking them in to the same plane, you really need to spend some time on a grinder with some one that knows what there doing, A clogged grinding wheel is not BUE, its more akin to a milling cutter with flutes full of metal. Diffrent cause and effect, generally if you run a grinding wheel slower and harder its actually less inclinded to clog and acts softer, please go over to the abrasives section and learn some of this shit, its all there and then you may finally start to see why anyone that grinds views anyone with a mill on a par with how a fine wood worker with a nice bench plane views a chainsaw carver!

    And dont get me started on the precision fucking oil stone crowd, i have friends who use to do crystal and optical components and they would damn near bludgeon you to death with that semi flat blunt lap your calling a precision truing stone. if you want flat its not all that hard to achive, but a diamond ground oil stone is not going to do you any favors.

    If you want to discus flat bellow what a tenths indicator shows, your into optical flats, just be warned, they can't be cheated, its either flat or a proverbial mountain range when you start playing in light waves and theirs no hiding it.
    But....
    He's done tens of hundreds of thousands of millions of these! Surely he knows everything,right?

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    No a properly applied diamond does not dull the points, it knocks off thoes sticking out. Its the same as taking a milling cutter with the inserts all at diffrent heights and then clocking them in to the same plane, you really need to spend some time on a grinder with some one that knows what there doing, A clogged grinding wheel is not BUE, its more akin to a milling cutter with flutes full of metal. Diffrent cause and effect, generally if you run a grinding wheel slower and harder its actually less inclinded to clog and acts softer, please go over to the abrasives section and learn some of this shit, its all there and then you may finally start to see why anyone that grinds views anyone with a mill on a par with how a fine wood worker with a nice bench plane views a chainsaw carver!

    And dont get me started on the precision fucking oil stone crowd, i have friends who use to do crystal and optical components and they would damn near bludgeon you to death with that semi flat blunt lap your calling a precision truing stone. if you want flat its not all that hard to achive, but a diamond ground oil stone is not going to do you any favors.

    If you want to discus flat bellow what a tenths indicator shows, your into optical flats, just be warned, they can't be cheated, its either flat or a proverbial mountain range when you start playing in light waves and theirs no hiding it.
    Thanks for untangling that... I didn't know where to begin (just shaking my head in disbelief) … But good plug for the Abrasives forum (I need to start combing through that too / catch up. (thumbs up) ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    But....
    He's done tens of hundreds of thousands of millions of these! Surely he knows everything,right?
    No i don't think he has ever claimed to know anything other than whats written in the magical FOUNT of all info .XLS file.

    Above all though i would just so love to meet his boss, if anyone here ever does, please oh god please record it, should be a You tube hit if there ever was one. I still miss PI this place is not the same with out the village idiot and sadly tomb's not really it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    But....
    He's done tens of hundreds of thousands of millions of these! Surely he knows everything,right?
    and been in business for centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    and been in business for centuries.
    I was impressed by that too...

    Since before the birth of our nation... scrimshaw Spread sheets whittled out whale bone and walrus tusks with curlicues and repleat with King George the II's coat of arms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    company has made millions of parts over the centuries
    Hey moron, are you aware that a century is ONE HUNDRED YEARS?
    So, your company has been making millions of parts since at least 1818?
    I'm pretty sure we all know what DMF stands for now.

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    This is what haz me confooooooozed.


    Normally Mr Tomb speaks of cuts to the order of tens of millionths 0.00001" 1/4 of a micron...


    Now we/he is talking about surfaces that are +/- "tenth" "to two tenths" over an indeterminable distance and Ra/rz ?


    BUT I thought with machine tools where larger pads and contact surfaces have to fit very well that's why some / a lot of MTBs use scraping.

    I thought hand scraping for contact surfaces is of the order of +/- 1 micron over a pad that could be 8" x 8" or more but the pattern for scraping might yield 45% contact area or better.

    Being generous / lazy +/- 2 micron for more generic scraping.


    Even HAAS using (I believe) OKUMA massive gantry mills that are good or fit for the job and HAAS not using scraping.



    ^^^* scroll through and see milled contact surfaces (do they show the shims ?)

    So I would have thought that "Two tenths" is a bit outside of the engineering requirement ? Whether the surface is shiny or not ?

    Hence the conversations about "waves" and profiles and what-not ? [So maybe the tool lasts longer but the surfaces are not so good for the engineering ? ]. But for some reason there is no deeper metrology or surface characterization offered ?


    Also this is prefaced with the possibility of a triangulation / being drawn into an odd manipulation as this is ALL also prefaced by a salesman turning up with "said new" tool and "Approach"... ?


    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________


    I'm vaguely interested in all this as the Tomb says he can do this 99% of the time ?

    Tomb's assertion is [paraphrased]---> " Easy when you know how... But most machinist's don't know how... " "But I know how... do you ?" (kind of thing).


    In the dumb applications I'm wrestling with, trying to figure out if we buy relatively cheap CNC equipment and square the circle on all critical surfaces with grinding and lapping...


    OR does one fiddle and futz and tear one's hair out to find much more rarefied CNC milling and turning machines and technique that can kinda hit the tolerances but is a HUGE pain in the ass and does not leave much room for improvement in the future tolerance wise. + probable need for lapping + the business of hard turning / hard milling (no experience of) + possible need not to distort work pieces apply unnecessary forces , hence grinding being a better option.

    That's why weirder machines like a Hermle might interest me/ us (little ship) as it has mineral "castings" basically a block of epoxy + special fillers... as the vibration dampening capability seems credible to make higher quality milling / facing cuts for flat or straight surfaces over 100 mm (or so) that we can mount linear instrument bearings on (of various types) without having to grind or necessarily do a lot of hand finishing / lapping ? [Or even have to make our own hand made integrated bearings ].

    In the case of a giant gantry( gangly) mill that may not be the best on the planet I'm wondering what the natural vibrations actually impart to the surface being cut ?

    ______________________________

    * No affiliation.

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    Grinding is milling just on a smaller scale.
    You do "true" the tips when dressing but you true them in cylindrical fashion with no heel clearance so you are sort of dulling them.
    One would never do such to a milling cutter.

    Optical flats certainly good but those in possession of one more that 14 inches long in one axis please raise your hands.
    Add that they don't see underneath, only the surface which may or may not be true metal. They can and will lie to you as any surface checker does.
    They are a very big step up from indicator tips.

    One should of course never check or indicate flatness on the machine the cut was made on. That would be silly.

    There will always be sort of wrong thinking about what is going on but techniques that work.
    The machine tool world is full of this lore. If it works for you, maybe all good.
    Not so sure why the beat down.
    Bob

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  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Not so sure why the beat down.
    Because he's a broken record. Posts the same damn thing every day. Most people are sick of it I'd imagine.

    Long tool, vibration, shiny, rice grains, .0000001" over 40", 100's of thousands of millions of tons of parts, etc, etc.

    It's just stupid. Most of the time his posts don't even relate to the topic or original post. Not by a long shot. Then he comes on and dupes himself. Making another one of these threads, one of several he's already made on the same stupid topic? That's different if other people do it. I understand not bothering to search and create a new thread. But for the same guy to do it over and over? Come on.

    A year ago he was posting BS about "some stupid tool salesman" and bogus feeds and speed. Now he's the expert and gets the most perfect finishes, the fastest feedrates and best tool life.

    And, in that period he's done hundreds of thousands of parts and probably checked 10's of thousands of tools for runout and all the other idiotic shit he blabbers about all day.

    He fills the forum with garbage. IMO, I think its worse than deadly kitten.

    There's a lot of good information here. Lots of people start and post in great topics, then he comes along and the thread gets all retarded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post

    Optical flats certainly good but those in possession of one more that 14 inches long in one axis please raise your hands.


    <snip>

    There will always be sort of wrong thinking about what is going on but techniques that work.
    The machine tool world is full of this lore. If it works for you, maybe all good.
    Not so sure why the beat down.
    Bob

    sub arc second autocollimators :-D

    Hilger and Watts, Davidson... And a third one form … (need to check). Also Hilger and watts (different focal length/vintage).

    Saving up for some new fangled stuff from Vermont photonics...

    If I get good at what I'm supposed to be doing I can one day build my own.

    I would totally drop a wave plate larger than 5"... " Wow this is more slippery than an I-phone X... smash... " (Butter fingers. )

    __________________________________________________ _____

    --> When I say "waves" in that context I mean the wavi-ness of the milled surface not flat but wavy... physical undulations versus physical interference patterns from light waves.

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    I want the ten minutes back.
    Gw

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    sub arc second autocollimators :-D

    Hilger and Watts, Davidson... And a third one form … (need to check). Also Hilger and watts (different focal length/vintage).

    Saving up for some new fangled stuff from Vermont photonics...

    If I get good at what I'm supposed to be doing I can one day build my own.

    I would totally drop a wave plate larger than 5"... " Wow this is more slippery than an I-phone X... smash... " (Butter fingers. )
    i am poor i can only afford a very very old angle decor (SP) basically a 2 axis autocollimator but only accurate to about 10 arc seconds reading between the 30 secound graduations. lines, its useful though and more than good enough for everything i do, just really need to find it a nicer mirror than i have been using. Would love a proper autocollimator if any one has any leads on one sub 200 ish :-) they seam to go for a lot these days even on ebay.

    As to large optical flats, in person i don't think i have seen bigger than 6" even then im not sure how usefull they would be as they would sag under there own weight and getting everything into temp equilibrium would take a pretty tightly controlled environment and a pretty long rest time.

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    It's posts like these that really make me miss John Weldon

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    Too many things on the table at one time here for me to keep track of. I’m also not sure if we are all talking the same native language either, just dunno. I think tomb is trying to be helpful (just be one of the guys), but maybe show off too?

    I still think he’s confusing wavy & flat, they are different subjects with different solutions. It’d be good if he just posted the print callout. Cutting .0003” flat in 40” on a good boxway machine would be ordinary.

    My world, taking .0002-3” milling cuts would be anything but ordinary. Might be to the point I’d run him off. Maybe my habits would be bad in the n/c world but I always started attacking the last two numbers on the right from the get go. That meaning if it was xx.xx25 as a mean I’m trying to knock that down on the second pass then repeat all the way down to finish using even numbers. On a dials machine with a readout I will set and run with the dial much faster than the readout (but I check after set). It’s a routine. It is, after all, just making chips, not noise.

    About these crazy small depth of cuts… Run my share of cylindrical grinders ‘fo money, and any extra pass under .0005” infeed would indicate (to me) I F’ed up somewhere. Everything else the same for the intended tooling, so 3 tenths milling? You’re kidding me. Most here when they comment on a speed & feed question reply → check the carbide makers recommendations, setup for the middle and adjust from there. They give the same type rec’s for radius engagements & DOCs. So why would anyone think throwing “way out of the strike zone” would be a good start, or expect a good result???

    Looked at the haas video… At 16:30ish they show setting the T slot parallel to the X ways, interesting but I don’t think I’d trust things to stay that way. Then @ 23:00 a re-verify on the X then @ 23:18 pins are placed in the slots and a granite right angle is used to square the Y, (you see the pins wiggling about 23:23?)… Being traditional this would really mess with my setup habits.

    I’m not so crazy about a stone on something I’m about to shear on. That said, apparently those flat stones don’t leave any grains behind, interesting. I have a “Frankenblock” that will take fuzz off if cleaned up also, hard as hell. Also posting a chart for “estimating” surface roughness if a radius is involved, but it’s not really that predictive for milling outcomes.

    Good luck,
    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails frankenblock.jpg   surf_feed_noseradius.jpg  

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    The chart above is a good one and applicable in most cases.

    Zero dish cutters like what Tom pictured do act very differently though.
    The trailing edge behind the radius removes the cusp the radius would leave. Sort of a clean up pass.
    This action is different than a wiper insert and the two should not be confused.

    I sometimes design cutters to finish engine blocks using a .008 or less radius in a zero dish used at decent feed rates.
    The small rad on the front reduces axial (up/down) forces to get rid of waviness as you cross the bores and the zero dish provides the local flatness or smoothness desired.
    Trick here is to make a almost flat cutting bottom but not quite flat. Machine deflection from the radial load during cutting needs to be accounted for so it is very fussy.
    Normally used in one direction only with a very small intentional spindle tilt so that you never drag the trailing edge of the cutter.
    You will know very quickly when your spindle bearings have gotten the tiniest bit loose with such an arrangement.

    Generally I would stay far away from zero cutters except in special cases. They love to introduce chatter and are super picky about feedrates.
    Remove these headaches and go to the above chart. As with all things you can do a sort of in-between and Tom's cutter is in this ballpark.

    I have seen optical flats in a rectangle large enough to cover a V-6 bank or head.
    Treated like gold I'd guess the price tag was way up there.

    I am not turned off by Tom's posts. Seems a proud machinist although he may taunt a bit that, who cares?
    Some piss and moan about the spreadsheets he creates.
    Do your employees do such? Sorry but right or wrong I simply love this level of thinking on the floor.
    I suspect inside his place of employment he is the guy you love to hate.
    Bob

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    Personally it's the redundancy of the posts, that is annoying (for me). Honestly a spread sheet is of no real benefit in this application. A spreadsheet is most beneficial when you have percentile or time sensitive losses and gains (a column), that need to be calculated based on outside factors (a row), in order to find the sum (cell). But what he is doing is simply recording past events to avoid them for future circumstances or to utilize them if it was good, and I get that. But you can use waaay simpler methods to do that. Using a spreadsheet is just wasting Bytes IMO. I knew a guy who used Autodesk as if it were Powerpoint, literally creating all the stupid arrows and conversation bubbles and everything, it was really weird, and a huge waste of resources and time. So it begs the question; just how stupid or full of shit is a person?

    JMHO.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Personally it's the redundancy of the posts, that is annoying (for me). Honestly a spread sheet is of no real benefit in this application. A spreadsheet is most beneficial when you have percentile or time sensitive losses and gains (a column), that need to be calculated based on outside factors (a row), in order to find the sum (cell). But what he is doing is simply recording past events to avoid them for future circumstances or to utilize them if it was good, and I get that. But you can use waaay simpler methods to do that. Using a spreadsheet is just wasting Bytes IMO. I knew a guy who used Autodesk as if it were Powerpoint, literally creating all the stupid arrows and conversation bubbles and everything, it was really weird, and a huge waste of resources and time. So it begs the question; just how stupid or full of shit is a person?

    JMHO.

    R
    It is a problem with the internet / interwebs with solely text based "Presentation" as it's not always easy to get a handle on who a guy or gal really is. In other words Neither your or I works with the bloke or has necessarily met him face to face. That's why sometimes video (these days) can in some instances be more helpful.

    In the "Psych" "Community" there is a lot of constant debate trying to find easy "Metrics" to differentiate between those that have Aspy/Aspberger's / on the specturm type traits from card carrying malignant narcissists as in some cases the lack of empathy and lack of social awareness coupled with a sort of "Haughtiness" and boastful nature and claims that are not commensurate with actual experience or achievements can overlap in ways that is hard to separate (in some instances). [And frankly in some instances kinda get a little 'Dark".].


    IME it's possible that someone can have very narcissistic traits not be a card carrying malignant narcissist but yet be "On the spectrum".


    So folks that might have certain Autistic spectrum traits would naturally be drawn to things like spread sheets endless columns and rows of numbers but actually might struggle to compose that into something more meaningful to someone else (in a higher level succinct form; everything stays "trapped" at that lower level / endless shallow lake of information (level))... [Hence this thread and repetition thereof. ].

    So for folks that are somewhere "On the spectrum" (not uncommon for engineering, mathematics, physics or technical disciplines) that they may keep lists of people that have wronged them and keep this "Vendeta'/ axe grinding physical list for years and years... There may be a list of people from PM forum that is tabulated and rated by OP in a spreadsheet... (I'm not kidding).


    The more we take the piss out of these "Spread sheets" the more and repetitive re-incarnations of their use will appear.


    I have to admit I'm not really given to outright bullying of people with mild cognitive impairments or conditions, but sometimes a bit of "Tough love" / sharp correction is needed to help keep things between the rails for their own good (if needed rather than ignored).

    I just wonder how things would be different if half of us were actually on Mr Tomb's shop floor or met him in person? [Or much of the same but much worse? (Shrugging shoulders; who knows ?).

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

    [WOW not the post I wanted to make over coffee... Autocolimators surface finishes. info-graphics and visual communication and is it really necessary to "Polish, burnish or wiper insert a turd ?" ] 1/2 micron polishing effect versus surface variance of +/- 1" (over claimed distance between 0.1" and 40" (for straightness vs surface topography ?) [That's why surface profile plots are useful including the use of a profilometer.].

    Without proper surface characterization and specific statement of techniques OP premise is 100% useless/ unusable (other than to himself) .

    It's like having to pull teeth, crumb by crumb to tease out potentially useful information is a total waste of time whilst being "forced" to admire the grandiose assertions.

    " My name is Tommy-mandias, king of kings;
    Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
    *

    From a scientific and engineering and practical viewpoint it's a little "Cray cray"

    I understand what Carbidebob says in terms of "wrong thinking" and "machining folklore", but OP has not rendered any useful or actionable or useful information that one can even connect with or assess in any usefully defined way at all. YES milling machines can make "Shinny surfaces"...

    _____________


    * Ozymandias - Wikipedia

    Kinda like what AARONT was saying... Big shinny crab.

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    my original posting is on milling not grinding and the newer carbide inserts leaving a shiny mirror like surface
    .
    one observation waviness does not go down going below .0030 ipt feed, at .0028 or less ipt feed it stays the same. as i said waviness appears to be bue or built up edge sticking and breaking off cutting edges. seen when a hand stone is used by the shiny spots hundreds per square inch usually. the waviness appears related to sfpm and making hot chips. waviness measured with a indicator same as normally done
    .
    the inspection department actually prefers the shiny surfaces as they see less waviness too when they measure.
    .
    company been in business over 150 years. having a tooling salesman recommend a newer cutter is not unusual. after testing and using for years its been found the newer inserts are more sensitive to certain things like feeds and speeds and depth of cut more than normal inserts but they work ok.
    .
    every day i and others mill shiny mirror like surfaces to tolerances required. my posting was asking if there is any published studies on mirror finish milling. from replies apparently not much published studies. the feeds and speeds recommended by cutting tool manufacturer are a starting point. my main observation is lower depth of cut got to increase sfpm to make hot chips other than that tool manufacturers data is reliable.
    .
    all data recorded in a spreadsheet. it saves time repeating trying the same settings that do not work as well. spread sheet auto calculates sfpm ipt and cutting forces which can be useful. it show a slight adjustment to recommended cutting tool parameters if depth of cut is in lower amounts but otherwise agrees with cutting tool manufacturers data. as i already said milling is 150%-200% faster and tooling costs are less. thats why cutting tool salesman recommended them


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