Shopping for a 5 axis

BRIAN.T · Jul 23, 2018

My shop is looking to purchase out first 5 axis mill, given that we have no experience, we are going to buy a new machine. I want the support.

We are looking to spend about 200k, at the moment our top contenders are the Haas UMC 750ss and the Mikron e 500 u.

The Haas has 15k spindle and true 5, plus proven posts for mastercam, which is great.

The Mikron is 12k spindle and 3+2 only. Also not as common.

What does everyone think? Any recommendations between the two, or anything we haven't looked at in that price range?

Thanks..

Mtndew · Jul 24, 2018

How big of parts are you wanting to run? How close are the tolerances?
Does that $200k also include the tool holders and all of the fixturing that you will need to buy?

5 axis Fidia guy · Jul 24, 2018

Do you really need the simultanious 5x movement? The Mikron will be more accurate.

BRIAN.T · Jul 24, 2018

5 axis Fidia guy said:
Do you really need the simultanious 5x movement? The Mikron will be more accurate.

I definitely don't need simultaneous 5, but I also don't want to be limited, but that's mostly for personal reasons rather than practical reasons.

We are a job shop, mosty looking to do out standard 3 axis parts more efficiently. None of out parts are all that large, say 8" square Max. But we have a few jobs that will be about 20" diameter. Tolerances are +/-.005

As for the budget, the 200k mark is just the machine, tooling will be additional.

Thanks

Mtndew · Jul 24, 2018

BRIAN.T said:
I definitely don't need simultaneous 5, but I also don't want to be limited, but that's mostly for personal reasons rather than practical reasons.

We are a job shop, mosty looking to do out standard 3 axis parts more efficiently. None of out parts are all that large, say 8" square Max. But we have a few jobs that will be about 20" diameter. Tolerances are +/-.005

As for the budget, the 200k mark is just the machine, tooling will be additional.

Thanks

I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll find a 5 axis machine that can cut a 20" dia part in the $200k range.
8x8 definitely.
Have you considered a Tsudakoma 3+2 5axis table? You can buy as new for about $60k depending in size, and a new Okuma Genos M560v for $110k or so. We have the TWA-160 5ax table and it's pretty sweet.
4th and 5th Axis Rotary Tables

cameraman · Jul 24, 2018

Mtndew said:
I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll find a 5 axis machine that can cut a 20" dia part in the $200k range.
8x8 definitely.
Have you considered a Tsudakoma 3+2 5axis table? You can buy as new for about $60k depending in size, and a new Okuma Genos M560v for $110k or so. We have the TWA-160 5ax table and it's pretty sweet.
4th and 5th Axis Rotary Tables

That's a super idea … However any trunnion/ rotary on a M-560V leaves very very little room in Z.

@OP If I were you I'd seriously consider the MAZAK VC-500 5 ax...

I think that is around $190 ish (for full sim 5axis) and you can close in on a good deal I would expect and on the West Coast the MAZAK Aerospace centre/ showroom is really really good IMO.

That machine had some teething problems with a floating leg on the trunnion (a number of years ago) and they HAVE ironed that problem out. Pun intended. (or rather change/ radically the casting and support design to something that is very solid/credible)

Waaay more precise and accurate than you might suppose... The smooth X control is pretty nice especially for 3+2 on the control and some really neat features for sim 5 ax.

Go se one check it out talk to the guys in LA if they still have one on their floor or not... Get them to cut parts.

VC-5A 5X

^^^ Looks MUCH better in person and the working envelope is VERY surprising also... basically 20" x 20" x 20" (500 mm X, 500 mm Y, and 500 mm Z). Your 8" cube would go handsomely and also machine can act like a 'Universal" so you can do stuff in baby steps too.

Just as a point of reference a Robodrill (without scales cuz that's NOT allowed in the USA) with a decent 5 axis trunnion will set you back $140K

________________________

I know nothing about the Mikron machines as I assumed they were wickedly expensive ? Or that our local Okuma dealer / peeps sell Mikron also and hence will push anyone towards Okuma instead.

Mtndew · Jul 24, 2018

cameraman said:
That's a super idea … However any trunnion/ rotary on a M-560V leaves very very little room in Z.

We have the Tsudakoma TWA160 on our M560. And yes there are times where Z height is an issue,but for 95% of our work it's fine.
They also offer an extended column M560 and I think it's 200mm more Z.

cameraman · Jul 24, 2018

@ Brian.T

Another thing worth checking out as you are on the West Coast is Yamazen of course … With a Matsuura MX-330

I think that's around $200K pretty well kitted out, and you have some nice automation options with some of these machines like the PC 10... Pallet system. Not sure if you have to buy it as a package with the MX-330 or whether you can order the PC-10 later but it's disproportionately expensive? (as a separate item ordered later down the road).

The one thing that has me scratching my chin a bit is machines that you can upgrade to various cell type automation systems or whether you need to pay a lot more $ up front for automation capable systems. I.e. how easy is it expand an existing 5 axis machining center to more tools and pallet systems potentially in the future.

The one draw back with Mazak (in more general terms) if you are contemplating any automation options in the future then you have to pay upfront for a package that you might not use. Although I have seen some very crafty robotic workarounds for that.

________________________________________________________________________________________

That Mikron doesn't look too bad ? I always assumed they were a bit finicky, temperamental and super expensive... (that's only a random impression I have picked up and may indeed have NO basis in reality whatsoever).

Does anyone know anything about the Mikron's ?

_________

@Brian.T what controls do you like the look of or currently like ?

cameraman · Jul 24, 2018

Mtndew said:
We have the Tsudakoma TWA160 on our M560. And yes there are times where Z height is an issue,but for 95% of our work it's fine.
They also offer an extended column M560 and I think it's 200mm more Z.

My local Okuma folks (Hartwig) were like NO you can't put a 5th axis trunnion on a M-560V but that was before they freed up some options on the M-560V like the extended column option (Like you are saying).

That's good for a lot of work especially positional but they don't let you put scales or have scales on linear or rotary axes on a GENOS machine other than the M-460V 5 ax (as you know) which is $270K to $300K ish +++++

I have to admit I always liked the idea of a 5 axis trunnion set at the right side of table on a VMC so it can be used for 4th axis longer work pieces and then positional 5 axis smaller parts. With the Okuma m-560V moving in Y (bridge style layout) maybe that works ?

@ Mtndew how well do find the TWA160 to "Jive" with the OSP control ?

Cheers!

thesidetalker · Jul 24, 2018

What materials do you work with? Do you have other Haas machines?

metalmadness · Jul 24, 2018

BRIAN.T said:
My shop is looking to purchase out first 5 axis mill, given that we have no experience, we are going to buy a new machine. I want the support.

We are looking to spend about 200k, at the moment our top contenders are the Haas UMC 750ss and the Mikron e 500 u.

The Haas has 15k spindle and true 5, plus proven posts for mastercam, which is great.

The Mikron is 12k spindle and 3+2 only. Also not as common.

What does everyone think? Any recommendations between the two, or anything we haven't looked at in that price range?

Thanks..

We bought a Hurco VM10Ui last summer. About 180K with most options installed, true 5 axis, probing, etc. Our post was another 5K...workholding another 5K, tooling another 15K...so for one of the smallest purpose built 5 axis machines, our out the door was over 200K...not to mention ongoing maintenance (centerline accuracy etc). Its something to consider. Oh, also buy some seats of Vericut or similar software to ensure you are verifying true Gcode with your machine kinematics and models. Theres another $50k or so. And youll need Multiaxis for Mastercam.

I agree with the above, the only 5 axis you can get with that big a work envelope is a UMC 750. Investing in 5 axis should be considered in fractions of millions of dollars, not hundreds of thousands. A quarter million dollars. Half a million dollars. It may be worth looking into some of the smaller Mazak options as well

EDIT I believe Matsuura offers a few of the smaller 5axis machines, but I am guessing those are $$$$

G-Auto · Jul 24, 2018

BRIAN.T said:
My shop is looking to purchase out first 5 axis mill, given that we have no experience, we are going to buy a new machine. I want the support.

We are looking to spend about 200k, at the moment our top contenders are the Haas UMC 750ss and the Mikron e 500 u.

The Haas has 15k spindle and true 5, plus proven posts for mastercam, which is great.

The Mikron is 12k spindle and 3+2 only. Also not as common.

What does everyone think? Any recommendations between the two, or anything we haven't looked at in that price range?

Thanks..

Check out the Okuma Genos M460V-5AX

we were quoted just under 300k and it was well equipped

BRIAN.T · Jul 24, 2018

The UMC has a large envelope, the Mikron is even larger. It's amazing about 27"

BRIAN.T · Jul 24, 2018

cameraman said:
That's a super idea … However any trunnion/ rotary on a M-560V leaves very very little room in Z.

@OP If I were you I'd seriously consider the MAZAK VC-500 5 ax...

I think that is around $190 ish (for full sim 5axis) and you can close in on a good deal I would expect and on the West Coast the MAZAK Aerospace centre/ showroom is really really good IMO.

That machine had some teething problems with a floating leg on the trunnion (a number of years ago) and they HAVE ironed that problem out. Pun intended. (or rather change/ radically the casting and support design to something that is very solid/credible)

Waaay more precise and accurate than you might suppose... The smooth X control is pretty nice especially for 3+2 on the control and some really neat features for sim 5 ax.

Go se one check it out talk to the guys in LA if they still have one on their floor or not... Get them to cut parts.

VC-5A 5X

^^^ Looks MUCH better in person and the working envelope is VERY surprising also... basically 20" x 20" x 20" (500 mm X, 500 mm Y, and 500 mm Z). Your 8" cube would go handsomely and also machine can act like a 'Universal" so you can do stuff in baby steps too.

Just as a point of reference a Robodrill (without scales cuz that's NOT allowed in the USA) with a decent 5 axis trunnion will set you back $140K

________________________

I know nothing about the Mikron machines as I assumed they were wickedly expensive ? Or that our local Okuma dealer / peeps sell Mikron also and hence will push anyone towards Okuma instead.

First of all, everyone needs to forgive me, this is the fist time I've used this forum. Still figuring out how to properly reply to every. Any thanks for everyone's help.

We looked at mazak first, but everything we like with a decent envelope was over 300k plus I'm not sure how stoked I am on conversational controls.

Vancbiker · Jul 25, 2018

Of 5 axis machines I've done work on, the top 3...

Yasda, Makino, and Mitsui Seiki.

Those are not in your $200k budget by a long shot, but if you want solid and accurate (real cutting accuracy, not some dolled up laser shot numbers in glossy brochures) 5 axis performance, those are what you need to look at.

There may be some Euro builders that match these builders. I had little exposure to Euro machinery in my work.

Mtndew · Jul 25, 2018

cameraman said:
My local Okuma folks (Hartwig) were like NO you can't put a 5th axis trunnion on a M-560V but that was before they freed up some options on the M-560V like the extended column option (Like you are saying).

That's good for a lot of work especially positional but they don't let you put scales or have scales on linear or rotary axes on a GENOS machine other than the M-460V 5 ax (as you know) which is $270K to $300K ish +++++

I have to admit I always liked the idea of a 5 axis trunnion set at the right side of table on a VMC so it can be used for 4th axis longer work pieces and then positional 5 axis smaller parts. With the Okuma m-560V moving in Y (bridge style layout) maybe that works ?

@ Mtndew how well do find the TWA160 to "Jive" with the OSP control ?

Cheers!

They said you couldn't put a 5th axis on an M560 without the extended column option???
WTF are they smoking?
We have 3 M560's, 1 plain, 1 with a Koma 4th, and 1 with a Koma 5th and none of them have the extended column.

The 5th and the OSP work together perfectly. It was (still is) a big learning experience for me as I had no prior 5 axis experience but I love it. We have the Inverse Time option, only because the TCPC option is around $20k :ack2:

And since we almost never need full 5 axis simultation, the Inverse Time for 4 axis movement works just fine for us but for 99% of our work it's just 3+2.

GCMAN · Jul 25, 2018

My 2 cents

Brian: We currently have a 2016 UMC750. For what you have described, this machine would be a great addition to your shop. We are a prototype shop and this machine fits our needs perfectly. We program offline using Gibbs with Volumill. The machine will hold your tolerances easily. Ours came with Renishaw, TCPC and DWO which makes setup truly simple. We utilize a Lang vise system which makes different vise\chuck changes easily. All within your price range. 1 issue is if you would ever crash the machine, it would take around a minimum of $8000 to realign. The Y axis seems to not be able to take any crash. This would not prevent me from getting another one. I would recommend ,if you can, go the main Haas facility in Oxnard, CA. Also, I heard they are coming out with a Haas UMC 1000 at IMTS this year. Good luck with your decision.

cameraman · Jul 25, 2018

Mtndew said:
They said you couldn't put a 5th axis on an M560 without the extended column option???
WTF are they smoking?
We have 3 M560's, 1 plain, 1 with a Koma 4th, and 1 with a Koma 5th and none of them have the extended column.

The 5th and the OSP work together perfectly. It was (still is) a big learning experience for me as I had no prior 5 axis experience but I love it. We have the Inverse Time option, only because the TCPC option is around $20k
And since we almost never need full 5 axis simultation, the Inverse Time for 4 axis movement works just fine for us but for 99% of our work it's just 3+2.

Wow,

That's super valuable intel / info... I owe you a beer on that (at least).

Honestly I don't know what's up with Hartwig locally.

Mikron machine would have been a superb suggestion (also) but never materialized or came up in conversation, Hartwig burnt a mutual bridge with Hardinge (I saw that coming a mile / 18 months away at least + other Hardinge problems that are understandable given the situation. ).

Hartwig are VERY Okuma oriented... Like... Hartwig = Okuma...

A lot of potential options have disappeared from our state over the past few years.

@Mtndew who do have for Okuma where you are ? Is that Gosiger ?

Mtndew · Jul 25, 2018

cameraman said:
@Mtndew who do have for Okuma where you are ? Is that Gosiger ?

Yes, Gosiger.
Never once had an issue with them and have been dealing with them for many years.
11 years here at my current job, and another 10 at my previous job.
They are top notch.

cameraman · Jul 25, 2018

Mtndew said:
Yes, Gosiger.
Never once had an issue with them and have been dealing with them for many years.
11 years here at my current job, and another 10 at my previous job.
They are top notch.

I'm kinda jealous (and I'm not really the jealous/envious type ) as Okuma and Hardinge are my favorite MTBs (in a more abstract way), but overall there is not an amazing depth of support + knowledge where we are... (in more general terms) Monkton's that does Haas and Matsuura and Makino (and others) are really good... But sometimes hard to get good support local outfit in the same state with MTB/ equipment that's most appropriate.

Gosinger sound really amazing/nearly perfect running with Okuma + Hardinge.

Even Doosan evaporated locally too.

Shopping for a 5 axis

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Diamond

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Hot Rolled

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Cast Iron

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