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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by npolanosky View Post
    As far as getting stubborn tools out...could you make an air fitting with a pull stud thread, and just apply some air pressure while heating the holder? Pointy end away from face, of course.
    I always thought a solid idea would be to make a dingus that replaces the pull stud with a spring loaded pushrod that exerts pressure on the end of the busted tool.

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  3. #22
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    Just a curiosity, has anyone here actually used a shrink fit machine? I've used a Haimer, and although probably (ahem) priced out of small shop range, they are fantastic. Multiple heat settings, cooling rings, nice workbench, they are a treat to use. They even make gages for setting the depth of the tool, although a homemade one would be fine IMO.

    And they heat the toolholder in about 5 seconds, and cool in 30 or so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Just a curiosity, has anyone here actually used a shrink fit machine? I've used a Haimer, and although probably (ahem) priced out of small shop range, they are fantastic. Multiple heat settings, cooling rings, nice workbench, they are a treat to use. They even make gages for setting the depth of the tool, although a homemade one would be fine IMO.

    And they heat the toolholder in about 5 seconds, and cool in 30 or so
    I've used a Haimer, the Maritool unit, and a blowtorch.

    Blowtorch sucks. Yes, it can be done, but the PITA level is just off the charts stupid.

    The Haimer is super very very nice. It is also $20k. The water/air cooling is crazy effective at getting the tool useable in such a short amount of time.

    The Maritool is 90% as good as the Haimer, for $3500. Not as many doo-dads with the Maritool unit, but most of the Haimer doo-dads go unused, for 5x the price. I could live with the 2-3 minute cooling time.

    Even so, it is super hard for me to justify the Maritool at my volume, so I will probably get this handheld dingus and rig something up. I mean, we're all really just shying away from doing the proper thing and going with Rego Fix press-fit, but the nice thing about shrink is that you get huge benefits in runout and rigidity with holders that cost way less. The RegoFit prospect is that you pay $6k for the (hand pumped) press chimichanga, which is your license to be locked into $500+ a pop tool holder assemblies. Ouch!

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Just a curiosity, has anyone here actually used a shrink fit machine? I've used a Haimer, and although probably (ahem) priced out of small shop range, they are fantastic. Multiple heat settings, cooling rings, nice workbench, they are a treat to use. They even make gages for setting the depth of the tool, although a homemade one would be fine IMO.

    And they heat the toolholder in about 5 seconds, and cool in 30 or so
    I can't speak for others, but I haven't, which is one reason I've been a bit hesitant to make something up out of available induction heater parts.

    I think I can probably speak for most of us in my situation - it's not that we can't afford a shrinker machine, just that the price of them compared to what they must cost to build feels like the manufacturers are taking the piss altogether.

    I am quite happy to spend more money on a premium tool, I do it all the time. But not if it feels like I'm being ripped off.

    Edit: I should add, I was aware of the Maritool unit and I'd be happy to buy one at that price, but there are no such options here in the UK. The absolute cheapest shrinker machine I can possibly buy is twice that much, and extremely basic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    I can't speak for others, but I haven't, which is one reason I've been a bit hesitant to make something up out of available induction heater parts.

    I think I can probably speak for most of us in my situation - it's not that we can't afford a shrinker machine, just that the price of them compared to what they must cost to build feels like the manufacturers are taking the piss altogether.

    I am quite happy to spend more money on a premium tool, I do it all the time. But not if it feels like I'm being ripped off.

    Edit: I should add, I was aware of the Maritool unit and I'd be happy to buy one at that price, but there are no such options here in the UK. The absolute cheapest shrinker machine I can possibly buy is twice that much, and extremely basic.

    Well, isn't that most things? Not being a snarky ass, just an observation. I know our product at current job is WAY high priced I believe, but we design, build, test, gold plate, etc etc so alot goes into it, and on the surface it is just an aluminum body filled with a few electronics and such...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Well, isn't that most things? Not being a snarky ass, just an observation. I know our product at current job is WAY high priced I believe, but we design, build, test, gold plate, etc etc so alot goes into it, and on the surface it is just an aluminum body filled with a few electronics and such...?
    It is sorta true, but it is also true that our industry is full of people who know the actual COGS of stuff better than the average bear. Most of the shrinker machines out there are *wildly* overpriced given the components they contain. My guess is that the liability involved (and the necessity to festoon them with safety features) is a big price driver - lots of $9/hr shop floor skippies assigned to tool management grunt work who might see an open induction heater as a solid path to a little settlement cash. Remember kids: Hot metal looks like cold metal, but feels different!

    Frank nailed it with his machine in the price:performance ratio. Even so, as a one man band doing lightweight production and process dev work on a BT30 machine, I would love the shrink benefits ($160 holders that perform like way more exotic collet/press/hydraulic holders? yes please!), but that up-front capital investment just never pencils out as a pill I want to swallow compared to all the other capabilities I could acquire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Well, isn't that most things? Not being a snarky ass, just an observation. I know our product at current job is WAY high priced I believe, but we design, build, test, gold plate, etc etc so alot goes into it, and on the surface it is just an aluminum body filled with a few electronics and such...?
    Of course everything has markup to make it worth the cost of making.

    But consider what other pieces of equipment you can buy for around the same sum of money as a shrinker machine, and consider what is required in the manufacture of those compared to what is required in the manufacture of a shrinker machine.

    I can buy a fourth axis for the price of a midrange shrinker machine. I can buy a rotary tilting table for the price of a high end shrinker machine. I can buy two high quality precision modular machine vices for the price of one low end shrinker machine.

    It makes the perceived value of the shrinker machine seem extremely poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Of course everything has markup to make it worth the cost of making.

    But consider what other pieces of equipment you can buy for around the same sum of money as a shrinker machine, and consider what is required in the manufacture of those compared to what is required in the manufacture of a shrinker machine.

    I can buy a fourth axis for the price of a midrange shrinker machine. I can buy a rotary tilting table for the price of a high end shrinker machine. I can buy two high quality precision modular machine vices for the price of one low end shrinker machine.

    It makes the perceived value of the shrinker machine seem extremely poor.
    Do you *need* those other things? (4th axis, 5th axis, modular vice)... I guess I can't explain if you have never used one (not trying to sell one LoL). It's pretty much a tool changing 'station' like any other. In the time it takes to unscrew an er collet, or a sidelock, you can un-shrink a tool and re-shrink a new tool in the holder..., except no tools req'd (:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Do you *need* those other things? (4th axis, 5th axis, modular vice)... I guess I can't explain if you have never used one (not trying to sell one LoL). It's pretty much a tool changing 'station' like any other. In the time it takes to unscrew an er collet, or a sidelock, you can un-shrink a tool and re-shrink a new tool in the holder..., except no tools req'd (:
    I've seen them used enough to understand the benefits.

    "Need" is relative. They're priced such that lots of places that "need" them just do without. If they were more reasonably priced they'd sell tenfold more of them.

    If I put my tinfoil hat on I might imagine that manufacturers are pricing the shrinker machines artificially high in order to prevent cannibalising sales of their expensive engineered solution tools with the much cheaper shrink holders...

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    @BRIAN.T
    Whatever method you end up using, be careful. One overheat can turn a 1000-2000 cycles holder to a single-cycle, disposable holder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    If I put my tinfoil hat on I might imagine that manufacturers are pricing the shrinker machines artificially high in order to prevent cannibalising sales of their expensive engineered solution tools with the much cheaper shrink holders...
    Nah,
    I dont see any manufacturers doing that. Shink holders are great but they also have a lot of drawbacks as well. Bad harmonics, long gage lengths. Not one type of holder exists that you can say hands down is the best. Every type has pros and cons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Nah,
    I dont see any manufacturers doing that. Shink holders are great but they also have a lot of drawbacks as well. Bad harmonics, long gage lengths. Not one type of holder exists that you can say hands down is the best. Every type has pros and cons.
    Bad harmonics yes, but worse than any super slim collet system? I'd say that's marginal.

    As for gauge length, I was talking specifically about alternative long slim systems. I can only speak for myself, but that is the specific reason I ever use shrink holders.

    Whatever the reason, I think it is fair to say that the cost of shrink machines from the big names are artificially inflated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    .....

    Edit: I should add, I was aware of the Maritool unit and I'd be happy to buy one at that price, but there are no such options here in the UK. The absolute cheapest shrinker machine I can possibly buy is twice that much, and extremely basic.
    Perhaps you have found an empty market niche that you could fill.
    I think some see these low dollar induction hobby things on Amazon or E-yuck and feel they are being overcharged.
    I wonder if these people have an induction anything running production. Not the same.
    Shrink fit works in specialty applications and in some spots it is the best thing since sliced bread. For general use I'm not so sold on it.

    Like all tooling systems that survive in the market has it's place and will have fans that over use or claim fantastic results.
    It is a tool in the box, be careful that when you a new hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.
    Bob

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    If you are into DIY electronics, this plus a beefy power supply would probably work well......

    US 1800W ZVS Induction Heating Board Module Flyback Driver Heater+Tesla Coil+Fan 6212809267025 | eBay

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    We have 2 Haimer shrink fit machines, one new one and one older one, although perhaps wildly over priced, I am also using the majority of my shrink fit holders from 20 years ago, I have not kept track, but there are in the thousands of heat-cooling cycles on them. Once you overcook a few $400 holders with a torch, the Haimer looks better and better.

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    Only have one machine here and it has a trunnion on it, so most of my holders have a 4" gauge length to reach the center. I got a few shrink fits to test, and loaded and unloaded them with a MAPP gas torch. They worked great, tool life on my harder working tools increased significantly, and I could even turn up my cutting parameters a bit. Never had any problem with loading or unloading 1/4" and up with the torch, it just takes a while. All my pull studs are coolant thru, so I can stick a rod through to push if I have to. After a few months of that Frank released his induction machine and I got one. Now shrinks are my preferred holders for 3/8" and up, or 3/16" and up with long stickouts. I've occasionally done a 1/8", but they don't go in or out easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Griffing View Post
    If you are into DIY electronics, this plus a beefy power supply would probably work well......

    US 1800W ZVS Induction Heating Board Module Flyback Driver Heater+Tesla Coil+Fan 6212809267025 | eBay
    Quite a far stretch from Haimer with 10 times more power. Would probably work ok-ish for inserting the tools if you are not in hurry. Mari tool's heater seem to be 6kW.
    Budget version would be 10 to 20kW chinese induction heater at about 1 grand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    Quite a far stretch from Haimer with 10 times more power. Would probably work ok-ish for inserting the tools if you are not in hurry. Mari tool's heater seem to be 6kW.
    Budget version would be 10 to 20kW chinese induction heater at about 1 grand.
    The Haimer has 18kW?

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    Yes, Our unit is 6000w. Takes about 12 sec to expand one of our 1/2 holders to accept a 1/2 shank.


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