Siemens 840D vs Heidenhain TNC 640 for 5 axis
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    Default Siemens 840D vs Heidenhain TNC 640 for 5 axis

    Hello,

    We are in the process of buying our first 5 axis cnc mill and we are down to the controller. For various reasons we seem to be going for the DMU50 3rd gen. and it comes with either a Siemens 840D or a TNC 640. So, what to do?

    There are some points that might help you guys help me,
    1. There is no prior experience on these controls, so, they are both controls we will have to learn.
    2. There is no price difference and there is very little if any support difference.
    3. The Siemens DMU comes with Siemens motors and Magnascale linear encoders, while the Heidenhain DMU comes with its own motors and linear and rotary encoders.

    Because most of out complex parts will be from CAM, what we would wish for is,
    1. User friendly control
    2. Relatively easy to learn or self teach, as much as possible
    3. Relatively easy to program basic milling jobs from the control, good graphical representations are important for us
    4. Collision protection ability for axes, work holding, tooling and part
    5. Simulation capability

    I have searched the forum, the web and around us as much as I could but, could not really find people who had enough experience with both of the controls to tell me the differences that matter.

    Are there any important things that one can do and the other cant? Read ahead capability? Options? Anything?...

    Most people that I heard or read from have more experiences on one or the other, not both, which is normal I guess. However, any knowledgable input will be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you.

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    I'm in / at a similar stage as yourself but leaning heavily to Hermle C-250/400.

    The DMG mori guys I have dealt with from Germany and locally were pushing me heavily towards Heidenhain on a possible DMU 60 Monoblock. The reason being (at that time / last couple of years) is that the collision avoidance / graphical model / geometric model capability on the Heidenhain is supposed to be larger/bigger/ more capable.


    For me (personally) I prefer the quality of the mechantronics of Heidenhain as I have experience integrating with their rotary encoders and linear scales and processing electronics and control systems... Top notch world class in every way.

    However I would expect the Siemens to be more 'Didactic"/ "Auto-didactic" and self explanatory over the Heidenhain. Again, on the other hand , some of the canned cycles and operations seem more sophisticated/ capable and deeper on the HEIDENHAIN than on the SIEMENS (but I could be wrong); but that's how it seems.


    On the other hand (Vishnu number of hands here), I would expect that you would get better support directly from HEIDENHAIN, over SIEMENS through DMG MORI. Also I believe Heidenhain offers free training on their control regardless of what machine you have.





    __________________________________________
    __________________________________________


    Nashero (who hangs out here form time to time on pm forum) bought a DMU 50 3rd gen with the SIEMENS option (as he was already well versed with SIEMENS on 3 axis) + other reasons.


    On PM forum some older 'Salts" here would say that SIEMENS has some issues in terms of longevity on the back side of the control system.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________________


    @byazici I thought "Byzantium" was pretty much the machine tool epicenter of Europe these days ? Funny you would come to PM forum to try and get the "Skinny" on all that.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________


    Personally----> bottom line, I would put reliability and consistency of real support over control type.

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    Thank you for the reply.

    Let me first 'tickle' you by asking why you're thinking of a Hermle C250/C400? Unfortunately, that series is mostly hype, actually, Hermle is mostly hype, alot of it in fact. Its like placebo; anyone who has a Hermle thinks its great because everyone says its great and they paid lots of money for it. Its funny that they still have a worm drive in the C and a gear drive in the A for the table and are trying to move the whole gantry with a single ballscrew. You should see the twist the machine has when machining anything closer to the edge of the table. Oh, no one wants to talk about those, everyone who buys the machine seems to be machining stuff right on the center. Sorry for the rant, its just sad.

    Anyone buying a machine for that price should really look at Makino (DA300 or D500 for ex.) or GF Mikron (much better structure and kinematics on the Mill P 500). If you want a gantry type, Mikron is best in class right now for the price. Its mineral casting is done by the same company, Rampf, in Germany and its heavier and also better and more stable. Its got double ball screws and double encoders on the gantry movement. Its got MSP on the spindle for crashes and those crashes are a sight to behold, should see one live to believe it, nothing like those funny aluminum bushings on the Hermle, which require the whole spindle to be lifted to be replaced if a crash occurs. Its got direct drive in C and A. The list continues...If you want real accuracy, the makino DA300 has the best volumetric accuracy in the price class and the best kinematics in that segment, The simultaneus movements that are real-time calculated according to the weight thats on the table is mesmerizing. The machine basically speeds up as the part is machined. I would look at it if I were you...anyway.

    Wouldnt agree about the 'Byzantium' bit but, we do have a lot of 5 axis machines around Turkey, and I dwelled alot in the hardware side of things. I studied most 5 axis machines and got a chance to see most of them in action, also spoke to the people who used to work as technicians, did some in depth research there. Travelled a lot and attended many open houses of brands and saw some machines without the steel. But, unfortunately, had tough luck in finding operators with experience on both Siemens and Heidenhain.

    As you said, I heard the same things about Heidenhain, almost in the order that you put it but, nothing really substantial about Siemens. I read that they got knocked around quite a bit in the old days but, are they still that bad in terms of support and such or is that a thing of the past...I cant seem to find out and dont really want to find out after purchase.

    Wow, I guess I couldnt stop myself...again. Sorry for the long thank you.

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    We were in this same boat 2 years ago. First off, the Hermle C250 is a budget machine, which is why the worm gears. Having said that, before our purchase, we did a test cut on the Mikron 800U, the Makino, the Okuma, and the Hermle C42. We ended up the the Hermle, because it was most importantly the most accurate, best surface finish, and fastest control. The Okuma was pathetic, the Makino was second last, the Mikron was 2nd place. We opted for the 640 Heidenhain control which is awesome. The only gripe with the Hermle is, with the pallet changer, they could not have made that more complicated if they tried. They must have had an entire committee sit down and try to make that programming software as complicated as possible.

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    Hi,

    Would really like to know which models of makes that you had the test cuts done on and were they using the same tooling and holders and were they programmed by people who know the machines. Also, were the machines equally equipped, with linear encoders and dynamic options? I also had parts machined on all the listed machines except the Okuma. The way that I would order them would be Makino (D500) 1st, by far, Mikron (HPM 800 U D) 2nd and Hermle (C400) 3rd. It really depends on who programmed them with what tooling as you can make a great machine look like a POS if you REALLY dont know the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    We were in this same boat 2 years ago. First off, the Hermle C250 is a budget machine, which is why the worm gears. Having said that, before our purchase, we did a test cut on the Mikron 800U, the Makino, the Okuma, and the Hermle C42. We ended up the the Hermle, because it was most importantly the most accurate, best surface finish, and fastest control. The Okuma was pathetic, the Makino was second last, the Mikron was 2nd place. We opted for the 640 Heidenhain control which is awesome. The only gripe with the Hermle is, with the pallet changer, they could not have made that more complicated if they tried. They must have had an entire committee sit down and try to make that programming software as complicated as possible.

    "Ditto" for same reason (seems to be)… Working through things at the moment. Very 'Artfully" engineered machine that happens to match our most challenging cuts, sequences of rotation/ operations etc. for our most critical parts. With our tolerances for particular referenced key surfaces and corresponding geometries+ surface finish conditions seem like a very good fit. The goal is to have machine that we can afford but not have to purchase $200K ++ of additional equipment to correct what the 5 axis machine could not do/ accomplish. For certain parts the goal is to see if we can go straight from CNC to Lapping and bypass certain grinding operations. The rest of our (more numerous) parts are complex but lower tolerance/ easy enough.

    Company culture and the ability to connect the dots (in as few dots as possible) when the unexpected happens is key.

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    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    Thank you for the reply.

    <Snip for contextual clarity>

    Let me first 'tickle' you by asking why you're thinking of a Hermle C250/C400? Unfortunately, that series is mostly hype, actually, Hermle is mostly hype, alot of it in fact. Its like placebo; anyone who has a Hermle thinks its great because everyone says its great and they paid lots of money for it. Its funny that they still have a worm drive in the C and a gear drive in the A for the table and are trying to move the whole gantry with a single ballscrew. You should see the twist the machine has when machining anything closer to the edge of the table. Oh, no one wants to talk about those, everyone who buys the machine seems to be machining stuff right on the center. Sorry for the rant, its just sad.


    Wow, I guess I couldnt stop myself...again. Sorry for the long thank you.

    First off @byazici your English is super excellent … Is it your first or second language ?


    As to the "Unfortunately, that series is mostly hype, actually, Hermle is mostly hype, alot of it in fact. Its like placebo;..."
    *
    ^^^
    It's funny that, as THAT was exactly my initial impression of HERMLE, however having made the effort to "Investigate" and find a fit for our applications I have found the exact opposite of everything you have written.


    I was kinda pleasantly surprised about that.

    They were able to prove that, something that the "Other guys" have a hard time doing. Very open honest straight forward , grounded and no BS. They get right to it.


    In my case I know exactly what I want from a machine in terms of the "wants" of the application. I'm not really in the business of handing out ball bar and interferometry plots and rotational plots etc. etc. [Even though I'm not under NDA ], but I have to say the straightness of Y axis (move) and C axis repeatability is very very impressive. Similarly with the ball bar plots, goes to toe to toe with any of the Japanese machines thus far mentioned. That's where the good and "Artful" engineering in a very grounded and practical way pays off. 'Cuz that's all they do.


    I'm originally from Europe (UK) but have worked in Germany and lived in France and in Europe sometimes the folks that really know their craft to a high level and are the BEST at what they do, tend to be very understated. Coming to the USA (I am US citizen also) I find that the 'Wannabees" are the ones that try to blow their trumpets the loudest and are always trying to make out they are the best rather than actually (quietly) being the best. [@byazici I have spent time in Turkey + various related projects and loved every minute of it, hope to go back one day. ].


    No matter how good a particular machine may be never buy a machine from clowns.

    [As technical "Peeps" we sometimes over-focus on 'The machine" rather than WHO we are buying said machines from. With my business-man hat on that makes a much bigger difference in the long run. Consistency (for me) the most important thing when hunting up new partners (as such) when taking not insignificant risks/investment/ equipment purchases. ].



    If you are in the business of doing challenging technical things that have never been done before then you need a company that you can work with that at least holds to the same standards (as a company) as you do yourself. Very impressed by HERMLE as their company culture kind of exceeds what we aim to do ourselves and we hold ourselves to very high standards (that's just the area we work in). Seems that various departments at Apple and SpaceX have gone through a couple different brands of machines / MTBS and have arrived squarely at HERMLE (in some instances).





    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________


    * I make things in bigger size (type), with emphasis NOT to be drama queen but to make it easier for folks on smart phones etc. to just skim over the "key points" / headlines in a more cursory way... It's a bit more random access / user friendly between folks sitting at a computer versus folks using smart phones.

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    Thank you for the comment, it’s my second language but, I learned the language when I was 7, we lived in London for a few years, then in New York for seven years, hence its almost like my first language...almost cause I’m losing my Yankee accent

    Anyway, never said Hermle was a bad machine, just said there is better for the price and that hype is too much for what comes in the machine. However, I wish all the best with your machine and I sincerely hope it will be everything you hope for. I stand by what I said as I have seen it in proof and no, not a ball bar test but, a test while cutting 4140, which is basically my drug of choice for steel tests.

    I completely agree about the part about ‘who is behind the machine’ in terms of support, application, company and so forth, which sucks around these parts for most companies. DMG, GF, Chiron are some of the few companies that have their own offices here, the rest are mostly distributors, including Hermle. I just don’t like distributors from many negative experiences.

    I can’t argue about Hermle as a company, heard great things about their support in UK, US and Germany, heard they have a great factory, better than DMG they say but, haven’t seen it yet. Hope to though...hope to see Yasda, Roku Roku, Mitsui-Seiki, Nakamura-Tome, Grob, Leichti and Roeders factories some day (ok, so what if I have soft spot for the Japanese...)

    Got way off topic, just realized, back to subject please...Siemens, Heidenhain...Fight!

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    What are they pricing you on the DMu50 Gen 3? I looked into one to replace my 2 quaser machines and for the price was not interested.

    Im fond to Siemens but I own 5 machines with their control and haven't tried Heidenhain because I don't want another brand in the shop. (Interesting enough the KERN USA President was here last week and really impressed me/ they only use Heidenhain )

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    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    Hi,

    Would really like to know which models of makes that you had the test cuts done on and were they using the same tooling and holders and were they programmed by people who know the machines. Also, were the machines equally equipped, with linear encoders and dynamic options? I also had parts machined on all the listed machines except the Okuma. The way that I would order them would be Makino (D500) 1st, by far, Mikron (HPM 800 U D) 2nd and Hermle (C400) 3rd. It really depends on who programmed them with what tooling as you can make a great machine look like a POS if you REALLY dont know the machine.
    I did the programming, (20 plus years of 5x programming and cutting) same exact programs on all the machines, same toolholders, same endmills. I personally watched every machine cut, with the exception of the Makino. And yes, the Hermle won. They only gripe I have about the Hermle, is they tend to overcomplicate everything. It's a German thing I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    They only gripe I have about the *INSERT GERMAN NAME BRAND HERE* GMBH, is they tend to over complicate everything. It's a German thing I guess.
    There.... I fixed it for you LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    Thank you for the reply.

    <snip>

    Anyone buying a machine for that price should really look at Makino (DA300 or D500 for ex.) or GF Mikron (much better structure and kinematics on the Mill P 500). If you want a gantry type, Mikron is best in class right now for the price. Its mineral casting is done by the same company, Rampf, in Germany and its heavier and also better and more stable. Its got double ball screws and double encoders on the gantry movement. Its got MSP on the spindle for crashes and those crashes are a sight to behold, should see one live to believe it, nothing like those funny aluminum bushings on the Hermle, which require the whole spindle to be lifted to be replaced if a crash occurs. Its got direct drive in C and A. The list continues...If you want real accuracy, the makino DA300 has the best volumetric accuracy in the price class and the best kinematics in that segment, The simultaneus movements that are real-time calculated according to the weight thats on the table is mesmerizing. The machine basically speeds up as the part is machined. I would look at it if I were you...anyway.

    <snip for clarity>

    Partial dissection here...

    I'll preface this with I'm not always super comfortable about bandy-ing about certain $ prices as it seems two sales people (representing two different outfits) in my local have been let go (or sought pasture new)... AND it seems that price structures seem to be very much a moving target these days, especially with DMG-Mori. [These two statements are not connected.]

    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post

    Anyone buying a machine for that price should really look at Makino (DA300 or D500 for ex.) or GF Mikron (much better structure and kinematics on the Mill P 500)
    "For that price"----> OK well equipped HERMLE C-250 is of the order of $350K (blum laser + Renishaw probe, TSC, cyclonic demister, 18K rpm, scales, 30 tools, + all control features on (naturally) on TNC 640 + ability to automate in the future.).


    A Mikron E U 500 uses the older control (530) and has thin structure that is very reminiscent of the older DMU 50 from DMG apart form extra front bearing on the table (IMO the 3rd Gen IS a substantial structural improvement)--->

    The Mikron E u 500 Equipped for automation is about $380 K; It's structure is more of a universal type and with data I have received so far does not seem to indicate that it is more precise nor equal to a HERMLE C-250. Also for non-hassle of (nuclear proliferation treaty and export issues some of the German machines underplay their true repeatability's and accuracies... leave it more understated. ).



    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    If you want a gantry type, Mikron is best in class right now for the price.
    @byazici ^^^ Care to share some figures and prices on that ?



    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    Its mineral casting is done by the same company, Rampf, in Germany and its heavier and also better and more stable. Its got double ball screws and double encoders on the gantry movement. Its got MSP on the spindle for crashes and those crashes are a sight to behold, should see one live to believe it, nothing like those funny aluminum bushings on the Hermle, which require the whole spindle to be lifted to be replaced if a crash occurs. Its got direct drive in C and A. The list continues..
    Ok a machine ^^^ as you describe here + direct drive on C and A minimally has to be of the order of $450 K ++ , so I think you are kinda shifting class a bit here. (would be interested to learn how that really prices out.


    The HERMLE crash bushings seem like a very good idea plus other techniques to 'Wright a machine" + alignments.


    @byazici care to elaborate on "MSP" ?




    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    If you want real accuracy, the makino DA300 has the best volumetric accuracy in the price class and the best kinematics in that segment, The simultaneus movements that are real-time calculated according to the weight thats on the table is mesmerizing. The machine basically speeds up as the part is machined. I would look at it if I were you...anyway.


    I won't lie I'm kinda a fan of MAKINO in certain respects and it seems on the US side they are much better at connecting the dots as they have pretty considerable expertise state's side. Some other MTBs represented in the USA that are essentially Japanese products can have a hard time connecting those dots to and from Japan for deeper or more unusual issues / inquires.


    However, A DA 300 is about $410 K but has some good options for future expandability. Kinda different "Class" and price bracket.


    In some ways I WISH that Makino made a slower machine... like a high quality entry level machine. The DA 300 is incredibly fast... I won't need that speed for another 5 years at least.

    DA 200 seems pretty awesome, different animal / spindle but very accurate and crazy fast but small work envelope and footprint---> $375K base price but can be expanded in the future good options.


    DA 500 again different class but good envelope, I don't have ball park prices but expect it to be high $490's to $520's + what's needed to make the machine more complete/useful.


    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________


    As a partial footnote, that Japanese and the Germans especially HERMLE represent some of their test data differently. The Japanese tend to pull the best numbers (for brochures etc.) especially regarding rotational repeatabilities from uni directional data rather than 3 sigma bi-directional data. So that's why it's essential to view more dynamic and deeper data and plots. It's only half the picture until you actually start making cuts in materials that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dstryr View Post
    What are they pricing you on the DMu50 Gen 3? I looked into one to replace my 2 quaser machines and for the price was not interested.

    Im fond to Siemens but I own 5 machines with their control and haven't tried Heidenhain because I don't want another brand in the shop. (Interestinghttps://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3276422 enough the KERN USA President was here last week and really impressed me/ they only use Heidenhain )
    Kern are pretty damn special (in a good way).

    Yeah DMG Mori recently had a massive shift of price structures mainly at the Aegeus of Dr Mori. (Apparently he does not have such a fun time at IMTS, seems almost a punitive response in price structure to filter out the "Riff-raff"/ angry mobs with torches and pitchforks.).

    The introductory price of the DMU 50 3rd gen seemed really good indeed but for practical purposes it seems they have jacked up all their prices on almost all 5 axis platforms by $100K.


    Titan of TITANS Academy seem to want to base their more extensive 5 axis curriculum around the DMU 50 3rd gen but seems that that platform is not as accessible or in reach as it once might have seemed ? (maybe there are good academic discounts for the relevant entities ?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    Hi,

    Would really like to know which models of makes that you had the test cuts done on and were they using the same tooling and holders and were they programmed by people who know the machines. Also, were the machines equally equipped, with linear encoders and dynamic options? I also had parts machined on all the listed machines except the Okuma. The way that I would order them would be Makino (D500) 1st, by far, Mikron (HPM 800 U D) 2nd and Hermle (C400) 3rd. It really depends on who programmed them with what tooling as you can make a great machine look like a POS if you REALLY dont know the machine.
    I agree ^^^ with the sentiment about "Test cuts" and who is doing them.

    I am assuming when folks say Okuma they mean the M-460 V 5ax... [Their "Entry level" offering... Their other up-class machines are pretty amazing in their own right.]. Difficult to get real data on the M-460 V 5ax / bit of a crap shoot but does provide a vital bridge for a lot of Okuma users that other wise would have to switch brand to seek out affordable 5 axis up from the Genos line.


    I think Okuma sometimes have a hard time positioning or marketing this platform in terms of what the machine can really do.





    ^^^ This looked / looks better than what I would expect.. In the past they show some pretty "rough" looking parts coming off that platform, would not have considered this machine to be kind of in 5 axis mold class but this video seems to indicate other wise... Go German cake mold ! (At least it's not an impeller ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    <snip>

    Anyway, never said Hermle was a bad machine, just said there is better for the price and that hype is too much for what comes in the machine. However, I wish all the best with your machine and I sincerely hope it will be everything you hope for. I stand by what I said as I have seen it in proof and no, not a ball bar test but, a test while cutting 4140, which is basically my drug of choice for steel tests.

    <snip>

    Got way off topic, just realized, back to subject please...Siemens, Heidenhain...Fight!

    Ok remember this is / was kind of in the context of a DMU 50 3rd gen (that was your introduction). Which is now their improved entry level machine that's not any more really an entry level machine (at least according to them)… The price certainly isn't.


    So I would define the 'Class" as being $290K to $390 K...


    $450K to $550K machines are not in that "class" unless you have at least $750K to burn on a machine ? (In terms of broader viewpoint of what constitutes a particular "Class"/ price bracket, not just abstract price performance capability if your budget threshold is a million dollars.).


    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    just said there is better for the price and that hype is too much for what comes in the machine.

    ^^^ If you are going to make that assertion beyond "Opinion" you need to really 'Bring it".

    My assertion is that the company that you deal with is waaaay more important than the control assuming that both controls can deliver the 5 axis functionality you want.

    AND you have the additional problem of going through DMG MORI... At least with HERMLE + HEIDENHAIN you get two bites at the cherry, one from Gosheim (HERMLE) pretty directly (if one is buying has bought a HERMLE), if you need to and also a second road/ avenue if you need it HEIDENHAIN directly themselves... To me that seems much more efficient and less "Obstructive" than the SIEMENS + DMG route... (all things considered and does not preclude your ability to get lucky on all that.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    Thank you for the reply.

    Let me first 'tickle' you by asking why you're thinking of a Hermle C250/C400? Unfortunately, that series is mostly hype, actually, Hermle is mostly hype, alot of it in fact. Its like placebo; anyone who has a Hermle thinks its great because everyone says its great and they paid lots of money for it.

    Its funny that they still have a worm drive in the C and a gear drive in the A for the table and are trying to move the whole gantry with a single ballscrew. You should see the twist the machine has when machining anything closer to the edge of the table. Oh, no one wants to talk about those, everyone who buys the machine seems to be machining stuff right on the center. Sorry for the rant, its just sad.

    <snip>
    Sorry for the long thank you.

    Hermle C22 http://hermakina.com.tr/SystemFiles/...ere_C22_EN.pdf

    ^^^ Page 30... So you see the layout of the three point gantry system. Worth noting that there are 4 linear slides and that the center of thrust is waaaay far back from the front "trucks". Two of those linear slides in the center flank closely either side of the Y axis ball screw. So even a makino F5 has only one ball screw and two slides for high end mold work.

    4 linear slides + pulling the gantry assembly yet mounted on 3 major surface contact points seem pretty optimal from accuracy non twisting (YAW) in the XY plane laterally. That's part of why the Y axis is really very sweet indeed in terms of straightness. Similarly bridge style machines like Makino and Okuma are more accurate and straighter in the Y axis. For me / my eye Y axis cuts are going to be the most accurate and fit our most difficult part geometries + surfaces.


    http://www.aichi-sangyo.co.jp/pdf/ma...mle_C32_EN.pdf

    C32 page 12... same thing (interesting that "They" sell these machines into Japan ?


    http://www.aichi-sangyo.co.jp/pdf/ma...le_C400_EN.pdf

    C400 page 8, (for the slower entry level machine) … Seems they have pulled the twin center rolling element linear bearings / slide, and replaced it with a single slide that goes underneath the central Y axis ball screw. Machine does not move as fast , does it make a difference ? Still... Three linear bearings + three pads/ points of contact.


    There is an art to these things so depends HOW they implement what they do rather than what sometimes. (SHARP makes a 5 axis machine that has the layout you describe (SVX 500) .).


    Cast iron vs. mineral casting for vibration dampening + surface finish ?

    Not sure the Mikron you mention, thicker mineral castings + twin ball screws + DD motors is in the same price bracket as C-250 or DMU 50 3rd gen... Seems it would at least be $100K to $150K up from that ?


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________



    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    You should see the twist the machine has when machining anything closer to the edge of the table.

    ^^^ Have you got metrics for that ? or is that hear-say ? Because of that central rail with the ball screw and three rails that even if you are at one end of the table making a heavy-ish -ve Y cut you still have this smaller triangular force loop in the XY plane of the gantry (bi-laterally) ?

    Not saying it can't happen but would be good to know if that notion is real or not or just speculative ?


    __________________________________________________


    I agree twin ballscrews and twin encoder could be nice but then you have to build a machine that has exemplary parallelism in 3 dimensions on those linear rolling element slides on top of the walls... In other words with a "Quadrangle" arrangement you have natural twisting across the quadrilateral as 4 points is not a unique geometric solution and you will always have one point / contact surface out of plane with the other 3 contact surfaces.

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    Ok, lets slow down a bit cause there are some misunderstandings taking shape it seems.

    First of all, I never said "Mill E 500", thats a whole different machine, it is an entry level machine, its casting is done in China BUT, to its credit, it does come with a Swiss Step Tec spindle, AND if you opt for a simultaneus version, comes with direct drive on both C and A, nevertheless, its an entry machine. The machine I was talking about is the "Mill P 500", now thats something different and its a top-tier machine. Incredible the difference a letter makes...

    Oh, and MSP, that, if you didnt know, is something that will put a smile on your face, wish you could see it live ofcourse but, for the time being let me explain. It stands for Machine Spindle Protection and it is a system made by Jakob Antriebstechnik of Germany and licensed to machine builders. Currently its exclusive to GF for verticals and to MAG for horizontals, and if you know MAG, you know its serious. Its a systems that protect the spindle from a crash on all axes below 12m/min axis speed. It works with rare earth magnets that hold the spindle in place and let go in a crash to save the ceramic hybrid bearings. What is awesome actually comes right after...just hit reset and Z moves up and click, everything is back in place with below micron accuracy. Change the tool (as its probably dead) and continue where you left off. Words are not enough to describe the relief of seeing, in actuality, the saved bearings. Put it on your to see list, you will like it if you like mechanics of any sort. Anyway....

    The second thing is the prices are all over the place, let me put those in perspective, from my side, in Euros ofcourse. The machines listed below have the following options unless noted
    .renishaw RMP600
    .Blum NT4
    .20 bar thru coolant , 15 mazak
    .coolant chiller
    .thru air
    .hsk a63 20000rpm or 18000rpm
    .around 30 tools
    .band filter
    .coolant gun
    .wash down cabin
    .status light
    .heidenhain tnc640 (option 1 and 2), fancy fanuc Makino-Matsuura, mapps mori, siemens grob, osp okuma
    .dynamic packages
    .linear scales, except mazak and okuma
    .MSP -costs around 20k, subtract to equalize with other machines

    Mill P 800 w/MSP - 360k
    Mill P 500 w/MSP - 310k
    Mill E 500 - 220k
    Mill E 700 - 260k
    Makino DA300 -290k
    Makino D500 - 330k
    Hermle C250 -280k
    Hermle C32 - 330k
    Hermle C42 - 400
    Okuma m-460 5AX - 230k
    Dmu50 3rd - 200k
    Grob G350 - 360k
    Chiron Mill FX 800 - 330k
    Mazak i600 - 280k
    Matsuura mx 520 - 260k
    Mori NMV 5000 DCG - 340k
    Mori NMV 8000 DCG - 550k

    Numbers are rounded. I also gathered prices for other machines during last year, too long to list as this makes my point. These are all prices after discounts, ofcourse but, anyone can get these and below actually on some of them. These are recent prices btw.

    Thats the reason for the DMU50 btw and, as stated, DMG doesnt use a distributor.

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    Ok @byazici you are talking about this machine... NEW,

    Introducing the new Mikron MILL P U series (5 U/8 U) - GF Machining Solutions from UK - Milling | EDM | Laser | Automation | Customer Services

    P-500,

    https://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfa...u-800-u-en.pdf



    So given everything you claim / have said why are you not buying a Mikron p 500 over a DMU 50 3rd gen ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __


    * No affiliation to above cited documents / companies.

    ** Sorry seems you beat me by 5 seconds to the p -500 @byazici...

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    Quote Originally Posted by byazici View Post
    Ok, lets slow down a bit cause there are some misunderstandings taking shape it seems.

    First of all, I never said "Mill E 500", thats a whole different machine, it is an entry level machine, its casting is done in China BUT, to its credit, it does come with a Swiss Step Tec spindle, AND if you opt for a simultaneus version, comes with direct drive on both C and A, nevertheless, its an entry machine. The machine I was talking about is the "Mill P 500", now thats something different and its a top-tier machine. Incredible the difference a letter makes...

    Oh, and MSP, that, if you didnt know, is something that will put a smile on your face, wish you could see it live ofcourse but, for the time being let me explain. It stands for Machine Spindle Protection and it is a system made by Jakob Antriebstechnik of Germany and licensed to machine builders. Currently its exclusive to GF for verticals and to MAG for horizontals, and if you know MAG, you know its serious. Its a systems that protect the spindle from a crash on all axes below 12m/min axis speed. It works with rare earth magnets that hold the spindle in place and let go in a crash to save the ceramic hybrid bearings. What is awesome actually comes right after...just hit reset and Z moves up and click, everything is back in place with below micron accuracy. Change the tool (as its probably dead) and continue where you left off. Words are not enough to describe the relief of seeing, in actuality, the saved bearings. Put it on your to see list, you will like it if you like mechanics of any sort. Anyway....

    The second thing is the prices are all over the place, let me put those in perspective, from my side, in Euros ofcourse. The machines listed below have the following options unless noted
    .renishaw RMP600
    .Blum NT4
    .20 bar thru coolant , 15 mazak
    .coolant chiller
    .thru air
    .hsk a63 20000rpm or 18000rpm
    .around 30 tools
    .band filter
    .coolant gun
    .wash down cabin
    .status light
    .heidenhain tnc640 (option 1 and 2), fancy fanuc Makino-Matsuura, mapps mori, siemens grob, osp okuma
    .dynamic packages
    .linear scales, except mazak and okuma
    .MSP -costs around 20k, subtract to equalize with other machines

    Mill P 800 w/MSP - 360k
    Mill P 500 w/MSP - 310k
    Mill E 500 - 220k
    Mill E 700 - 260k
    Makino DA300 -290k
    Makino D500 - 330k
    Hermle C250 -280k
    Hermle C32 - 330k
    Hermle C42 - 400
    Okuma m-460 5AX - 230k
    Dmu50 3rd - 200k
    Grob G350 - 360k
    Chiron Mill FX 800 - 330k
    Mazak i600 - 280k
    Matsuura mx 520 - 260k
    Mori NMV 5000 DCG - 340k
    Mori NMV 8000 DCG - 550k

    Numbers are rounded. I also gathered prices for other machines during last year, too long to list as this makes my point. These are all prices after discounts, ofcourse but, anyone can get these and below actually on some of them. These are recent prices btw.

    Thats the reason for the DMU50 btw and, as stated, DMG doesnt use a distributor.
    @byazici thanks for taking the time to lay that all out.

    I'm just going to convert that to American money for other readers etc.

    Exchange rate is $1.00 = 1.14 EURO. Not sure if in Europe / UK you have 18 % VAT on top of that ? etc. ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

    In Dollars US. (Converted)

    Mill P 800 w/MSP - $410K
    Mill P 500 w/MSP - $353k
    Mill E 500 - $250k
    Mill E 700 - $296k
    Makino DA300 -$ 330 k
    Makino D500 - $ 376 k
    Hermle C250 - $ 319 k
    Hermle C32 - $ 376 k
    Hermle C42 - $ 456 K
    Okuma m-460 5AX - $ 262 k
    Dmu50 3rd - $ 228 k
    Grob G350 - $ 410 k
    Chiron Mill FX 800 - $ 376 k
    Mazak i600 - $ 319 K
    Matsuura mx 520 - $ 296 k
    Mori NMV 5000 DCG - $ 387 k
    Mori NMV 8000 DCG - $ 627 k

    __________________________________________________ __

    Ok will add/ edit one mo... Need a "Think" there / pause for thought lol .

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    Makino DA300 -$ 330 k
    Makino D500 - $ 376 k

    ^^^ Those prices for those machines would be virtually a 'Wet dream" for me / no brainer / slam dunk already.

    [Those prices were/ are immediately conspicuous/ stick out to me.].


    I have not seen prices remotely near that; had that been the case that would have been a done deal.

    IME experience (so far) On some machines there might be a 10% wiggle room but basically rarely beyond 20% (in general for other machines) but certainly not on a Makino DA 200, DA 300, and D 500... For those prices I'd be happy to carry out a ATHENA based research project for free. Jabber away at ATHENA SW test/ bug testing + timing/ efficiency study / test the snot out of it as WE are software developers also.


    I asked about specials discounts etc. and the answer was basically no as the machine is already "Special"... (thought that was a good answer).

    __________________________________________________ ______

    Raises the question / model of direct sales versus local sales + "Support". ?


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