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Small footprint VMC and CNC lathe for home garages?

rpseguin

Stainless
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Location
Napa, CA
I have a 2 car garage and a limited budget, but would like to get a small footprint VMC and a small footprint CNC lathe to put in the garage.


Recommendations on used small footprint VMCs and small footprint CNC lathes?
The local machinery dealer has a 2008 Sharp SV-2412, 10HP, 10 station, with a Fanuc 0i Mate MC, box ways, that is 73inx69in for $20000. I've been reading up here and see that the Oi Mate control is a bottom end control. Control upgrade possible? How much does it cost?
The dealer also has a 1996 Nakamura Tome TMC20-II CNC lathe, Fanuc 18T, 20HP, 8" chuck, 10 station VDI turret, A2-5, 2" bar, 83"x60", 6000 pounds for $14000. No tailstock on that machine.
I also wonder how much they can be haggled/negotiated down.
Recommendations and strategies for haggling with machinery dealers?

A local shop is closing down and the owner has a 1995-ish Kiwa/Excel Colt 510 with a Fanuc Series 0-M that is 77"x110". He has a 4th axis on it, but selling separately. He said around $5000 for the VMC.

Another local shop seems pretty eager to sell off their 1983 Matsuura MC-500V, but they want $5000 for it and it wasn't under power to show it running. I also don't like the lack of full chip enclosure.


The house main panel is 100 amp service and there's 50 amp breaker with a 60 foot run of #6 cable to the garage to a sub-panel.
I have a lead on a 20HP rotary phase converter.
I'm hoping/thinking #6 cable should be adequate if the rotary spins up unloaded and if the machines are not fully loaded. Is this wishful thinking?


Currently, I have a couple of older knee mills and a Hardinge HC and soon a 14x40 lathe in there. Since space is limited, I would consider selling off or moving out one of the knee mills to make space for said CNC machines.
 
the sharp might not be a bad deal ,,, but i would not want to cut my teeth on a fanuc control .. the learning curve can be hard with them ,, but the machine its self was built by First and there nice machines ,,, I would look at a fadal 15 or a fadal 15 XT .. parts are cheap and you can fix it your self ,, I have had one for 20+ years and "NEVER" had a service call on it ,, and the control is user friendly
 
the sharp might not be a bad deal ,,, but i would not want to cut my teeth on a fanuc control .. the learning curve can be hard with them ,, but the machine its self was built by First and there nice machines ,,, I would look at a fadal 15 or a fadal 15 XT .. parts are cheap and you can fix it your self ,, I have had one for 20+ years and "NEVER" had a service call on it ,, and the control is user friendly

Thanks!
What are the specs and travels on the Fadal 15? What is the floor/footprint size and how much do they weigh?
 
Depends I guess. I remember the first time I stood in front of a Fadal control with manual in hand thinking the learning curve was pretty steep compared to Fanuc.

I’m sure I’ll have a learning curve, regardless of which control.
I’ve used Fanuc a bit and Mitsubishi Meldas. I’ve never used a Fadal.
 
The local machinery dealer has a 2008 Sharp SV-2412, 10HP, 10 station, with a Fanuc 0i Mate MC, box ways, that is 73inx69in for $20000. I've been reading up here and see that the Oi Mate control is a bottom end control. Control upgrade possible? How much does it cost?

Out of the mills you list, the Sharp is your winner. "Low End" in Fanuc is nicer than any hobby control and a lot of the bizarre brand controllers out there. IIRC from a couple of years ago when I was mill shopping, the Sharp came with Fanuc Macro B, helical interpolation, and basic high-speed look ahed. I eventually wound up with a 0i-MC equipped Robodrill from 2006, and there was absolutely nothing that control couldn't do that I wanted it to.

Well, OK, it could have been a bit more intuitive, but that's a Fanuc deal (their human interfaces suck). That machine/control took everything I could throw at it with my CAM system, including production machining of 3D surfaced components at 90-120ipm. Not a problem.
 
Out of the mills you list, the Sharp is your winner. "Low End" in Fanuc is nicer than any hobby control and a lot of the bizarre brand controllers out there. IIRC from a couple of years ago when I was mill shopping, the Sharp came with Fanuc Macro B, helical interpolation, and basic high-speed look ahed. I eventually wound up with a 0i-MC equipped Robodrill from 2006, and there was absolutely nothing that control couldn't do that I wanted it to.

Well, OK, it could have been a bit more intuitive, but that's a Fanuc deal (their human interfaces suck). That machine/control took everything I could throw at it with my CAM system, including production machining of 3D surfaced components at 90-120ipm. Not a problem.

Thanks!
I like the Sharp. It’s definitely a small footprint.
There’s also a Fadal 30”x16” travel machine nearby and for less. I wonder how much it costs to replace the CRT with an LCD (assuming the CRT eventually goes bad or becomes too hard to read)?
 
the CRT works good on them ,, Between the VMC15 and the VMC15xt I have 30+ years making parts on them and never once had a control , drive or CRT problem... The resolvers go out in the axis drive motors every 5 to 8 years but there cheap and fast to swap out ,,,
 
The house main panel is 100 amp service and there's 50 amp breaker with a 60 foot run of #6 cable to the garage to a sub-panel.
I have a lead on a 20HP rotary phase converter.
I'm hoping/thinking #6 cable should be adequate if the rotary spins up unloaded and if the machines are not fully loaded. Is this wishful thinking?


You are not going to get very much 3ph power out of 50A single phase.

For reference, I run my 10hp PhasePerfect digital phase converter on a 70A 220v single-phase breaker. (PhasePerfect recommends 60A-70A breaker). On a 20hp PhasePerfect, they recommend 110A-125A breaker.

In a nutshell, if you converted the entire power from your main panel into 3phase, you would have around 15hp of 3ph available. And fwiw: a digital converter is more efficient than a rotary phase converter. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say you might have 5hp-7hp worth of capacity if you're converting 50A of single phase using a rotary converter. Start-up current requirement on your lathe may be the sticking point.

PM
 
You are not going to get very much 3ph power out of 50A single phase.

For reference, I run my 10hp PhasePerfect digital phase converter on a 70A 220v single-phase breaker. (PhasePerfect recommends 60A-70A breaker). On a 20hp PhasePerfect, they recommend 110A-125A breaker.

In a nutshell, if you converted the entire power from your main panel into 3phase, you would have around 15hp of 3ph available. And fwiw: a digital converter is more efficient than a rotary phase converter. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say you might have 5hp-7hp worth of capacity if you're converting 50A of single phase using a rotary converter. Start-up current requirement on your lathe may be the sticking point.

PM

Agree. With quality VFDs, you realistically are in the 10 hp range at 50 amps and 230 volts, maybe a touch higher. Problem is finding single phase drives that large. The VFDs reduce current because the power factor is very good.
 
Another point worth considering is a small vmc going to work with your parts? Things like a key way in a boat prop shaft is easy space wise on a knee mill, but few VMC's make these kinda bits easy to do. They work great on blocky shaped lumps, just realise going in there's not all that much space around the table to have parts overhang much.

Lathe wise i think you need to look at your available power, you may be able to reduce acceleration rates and in effect restrict the HP of the drives though to turn that 20 hp lathe into more of a 10hp lathe that you can actually power. This will mean longer ramp times and smaller cuts, but do to torque curves being what they are, this can be a lot less of a limitation than what most people realise at lower speeds depending on the drive and motor combo it potentially does not impact things like large spade drilling all that much. Part size is also something you probably want to look at with your workflow.
 
Hey Ralph,

You're going to need every amp of 100A to run what you got. I have a 20HP RPC and ran my shop off it in Santa Cruz, 100A is the rated current and it would occasionally kick out the relay/breaker in the starter box.

The Sharp is a good machine, that Colt 510 for $5k sounds like a problem child. I don't recommend a cheap Fadal unless you want to first do a rebuild before using the machine. The Fadals will fit if you remove the servo and reinstall after setting.

A 6ga run is only rated for 60A continuous, your 100A main service can have a service factor of 83%, which means the main service wires are probably 2ga -- you cannot run this service at 100A full duty.

That said, 6ga will spin up a 20HP RPC and feed a 5HP mill all day. 10HP all day is doable if you have enough juice incoming.

I have a CNC rated RPC from TEMCO in Fremont, it's rated to supply 35A for a CNC machine, which would safely run 15HP all day.

I just had my home service upgraded to 400A and the power guy had a very stern warning that if I was dimming anyone's lights, I would have to pay for a new transformer. Fortunately there are only 3 houses and I've been running that stuff for 4 years without complaint.

My biggest load is 10HP inverter based, but it can tax the system on accel (Hardinge CHNC-I).
 
You are not going to get very much 3ph power out of 50A single phase.

For reference, I run my 10hp PhasePerfect digital phase converter on a 70A 220v single-phase breaker. (PhasePerfect recommends 60A-70A breaker). On a 20hp PhasePerfect, they recommend 110A-125A breaker.

In a nutshell, if you converted the entire power from your main panel into 3phase, you would have around 15hp of 3ph available. And fwiw: a digital converter is more efficient than a rotary phase converter. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say you might have 5hp-7hp worth of capacity if you're converting 50A of single phase using a rotary converter. Start-up current requirement on your lathe may be the sticking point.

PM

I run a 15 hp CNC lathe and 15 hp VMC (not at the same time) off an 80 amp circuit from my 100 amp house service with a 10 or 15 hp RPC (who can remember these things). It used to be 40 amps until I ran a bigger cable from the house panel - the only change was slightly faster accelerations.

The machines have to accel and decel slowly but they run and make money.

I have another building with a 200 amp service from the same pole transformer and the lights in that building flicker when the lathe is spinning up so I'm not sure the lines at the road are up to the job even if I had more amps coming in.

Food for thought.
 
I run my Sharp 2412 off a 30A breaker and feed my 30hp Phase Perfect with a 50A breaker. The PP doesn't care as long as you're not asking too much of it and the Sharp probably pulls about as much as a 200A inverter TIG welder.

I have 60A service to the garage. Technically 55A since I have to derate the circuit because I used some NM inside the garage and house instead of all THHN/THWN, but I can use the next breaker up by code.

I am also running a... crap, 3hp I think Atlas-Copco screw compressor with refrigerated dryer off the subpanel (single phase, before the converter) and no issues.

I only have 100A service to the house, and will someday upgrade, but no issues taking some pretty aggressive cuts so far.
 
Its going to be really tight with 50amps. Especially when you add a compressor. I run my shop off a 125a service. I have a 30hp rotary phase converter that powers a Fadal 4020 and Mazak quick turn 10, both 10 hp. I did some measuring when I set it all up and my single phase load was 25a with phase converter idling, 30a with lathe and mill on idling, starting spindle on mill peaked current at 45a, starting and stopping spindle on lathe was around 75 amps. I increased the ramp time on the lathe after and it was a little better. Ramp time on mill was slowed a little too already.

Try and find a low hp compressor just big enough to run your machines and can handle continuous operation to save on peak demand. I used to run a 5hp two stage but about a year or so ago I bought a 1946 brunner 1.5 hp compressor (I love this thing!) and using this now to reduce peak demand. Also you can run 240v water heaters on 110 if you can live with slow recovery time, uses half the amps and only one leg. Digital phase converter will certainly be more efficient then rotary and a good choice on small service. Good luck with it.
 
You need to be cognizant of power factor when measuring amp usage of an RPC setup. The RPC will usually have a really poor PF unless the maker made a special effort to add the proper capacitors to make the PF better. I think that's why you see 25A idling, your load measurement isn't looking at the PF when calculating the real draw. Apparent vs real current draw can factor into your power costs too. Many utilities have moved to smart meters, which can calculate power factor, but more importantly I don't know if they are determining wH based on apparent or real power. IIRC the old power meters only measured real power, so a poor PF didn't cost you so much. I suspect many smart meters use hall effect sensors to measure current draw, but I don't know if utilities are charging for PF in residential uses. Improving the PF of your RPC can also get you more usable amps. Ampacity charts are based on unity PF, but if your RPC is .8, you will have to upsize the conductor by 1.25 (based on NEC table of FLA of a 3ph motor). So if you improve the PF, your wire goes farther. I know that my TEMCO RPC has extra capacitors for improving the PF, the idle current is rated at 10A for my 20HP RPC
 
Another local shop seems pretty eager to sell off their 1983 Matsuura MC-500V, but they want $5000 for it and it wasn't under power to show it running. I also don't like the lack of full chip enclosure.

cnc mill and cnc lathe - general for sale - by owner

Two for the price of one ! (Plus a little repair work ...)

I've always wanted to play with a four-axis lathe .....the Superslants were nice. From before Hardinge laid back and said "Take me, boys !"

Chip enclosure is no big thing. Broom and dustpan, maybe ten bucks at your local PayLess.

[If you don't like my suggeston, call Bob Kroha at Performance Machine and ask him to watch out for you. They are a pretty good place. Maybe they can come up with a trade-in or something. Something known.]
 
cnc mill and cnc lathe - general for sale - by owner

Two for the price of one ! (Plus a little repair work ...)

I've always wanted to play with a four-axis lathe .....the Superslants were nice. From before Hardinge laid back and said "Take me, boys !"

Chip enclosure is no big thing. Broom and dustpan, maybe ten bucks at your local PayLess.

[If you don't like my suggeston, call Bob Kroha at Performance Machine and ask him to watch out for you. They are a pretty good place. Maybe they can come up with a trade-in or something. Something known.]

Yeah.
I know Rob and Bob and that’s one place I’m looking. They have some machines I like.
 
I ran a HAAS TM1 from my garage, single phase you see :)

Nice and easy control too.

I understand the basic minimill can also be single phase.

You should find a 2nd hand one.

Doesn't fix the lathe issue, but might help with the power req
 
I have had very good luck running numerous Haas machines off of single phase. The TM1 and TM2 series of machines, non-super minimills, and the TL1 and TL2 can all be configured to run off of single phase. I explored going with bigger, better machines (Brother, RoboDrills, or the DT or DM machines), but with a phase convertor, I would quickly exceed my 100 amp service.

I could obviously run a 200 amp service to my shop ($7500) or have the power company sting 3 phase ($30k), or worse yet, grow up and move my shop into town. Then I come back to my senses and order more mini mills.
 








 
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