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    Default Small format 5 axis recommendations

    We have decided its time to look into a 5 axis mill at our shop. Our parts are typically small, a large part for us would be 10in x 10in. Mostly aluminum with a bit of stainlesss and rarely tool steels. 40 taper would be best but are open to the idea of a 30 taper. We are a job shop / prototype shop so speed isnt necessarily a major concern for us, although it could be usefull. Our main concern is versatility and reliability. We were currently looking at a super mini mill 2, vf1 with the tr160 trunion or a robodrill or maybe a brother with a trunion. Are Doosans any good? Im not a huge haas fan but their pricing and local HFO are great. There are so many options available my head is spinning. Your input, horror stories, success stories would be very helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ewindward View Post
    We have decided its time to look into a 5 axis mill at our shop. Our parts are typically small, a large part for us would be 10in x 10in. Mostly aluminum with a bit of stainlesss and rarely tool steels. 40 taper would be best but are open to the idea of a 30 taper. We are a job shop / prototype shop so speed isnt necessarily a major concern for us, although it could be usefull. Our main concern is versatility and reliability. We were currently looking at a super mini mill 2, vf1 with the tr160 trunion or a robodrill or maybe a brother with a trunion. Are Doosans any good? Im not a huge haas fan but their pricing and local HFO are great. There are so many options available my head is spinning. Your input, horror stories, success stories would be very helpful.
    I don't think I would recommend a 3 axis with a trunnion, unless you are looking for the most versatility. The trunnions eat alot of Z space so you will be limited on tooling , unless you get a large machine, with 20-25" of Z travel.

    Not used the HaasUMC500, but did run a UMC750 for a few years. You get a relatively large work envelope for a 'budget' price. You do sacrifice some accuracy, but there are some work-arounds using the probe to pick up new work offsets at different table positions for example.

    UMC 500 approx 10' x 10' footprint

    UMC 750 approx 10' x 13' footprint

    Are you looking for smaller than that? I don't know any other brands off hand, I'm sure other people will chime in on this...

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    Take a look at the Kitamura MedCenter5AX. Small footprint, extremely accurate.
    Chazsani

    Sent via GCode Editor @ 9600 baud

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    If you are only going to do 3+2 work Doosan DNM 200/5AX would be a good starting point.

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    Default 5 axis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ewindward View Post
    We have decided its time to look into a 5 axis mill at our shop. Our parts are typically small, a large part for us would be 10in x 10in. Mostly aluminum with a bit of stainlesss and rarely tool steels. 40 taper would be best but are open to the idea of a 30 taper. We are a job shop / prototype shop so speed isnt necessarily a major concern for us, although it could be usefull. Our main concern is versatility and reliability. We were currently looking at a super mini mill 2, vf1 with the tr160 trunion or a robodrill or maybe a brother with a trunion. Are Doosans any good? Im not a huge haas fan but their pricing and local HFO are great. There are so many options available my head is spinning. Your input, horror stories, success stories would be very helpful.
    Brother has a very reliable and fast trunion machine that would be a great fit.

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    Big question is... do you need full 5 axis?

    One of the reasons I picked Brother was their proven durability.

    I am the first to say, I have little to NO experience with Haas. But I have a lot of friends that run them at their day jobs. Not one of them would purchase one themselves. Before buying my Brother, I sat one of my best friends down who runs several different Haas at his day job, and asked him. If someone handed you a $100k to buy a VMC what would you buy? Not one of the machines, new or used, that he listed, was a Haas.

    I do very little production, I do a lot of work for the tool & die industry and manufacturing in general. If I had the cash, and someday when I do have the cash, I will be buying a Brother M140. You get 3 + 2 and turning in a small, accurate, compact package.

    Machine Tools | Brother
    YouTube

    another thread on the subject
    Brother M140X1 As a Prototype/Low Volume Machine

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    mike1974 - The UMC500 is on my radar but I have heard some horror stories about accuracy issues with them. I may reach out to haas and see if i can get a test cut done. How extreme were the accuracy issues you experienced? most of my work is +/-.005 with some tighter tolerances up to .0005.

    Chazsani - As to the kitamura, I did not know about this machine I will definitely take a look this evening.

    CG60 - do you own one of the doosans? If so how do you like it? Hows the support? From what I have seen from them I have been impressed, and unlike many people I do like the fanuc control.

    Fal Grunt - I do not need full 5 axis at the moment, although I know if I dont get it I will regret it in the future. Do you own one? How well does the brother do in tool steels? My limited experience with 30 taper machines was in aluminum on an older robodrill mate at a previous employer. Impressive machine speed wise, but didnt have much balls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ewindward View Post
    mike1974 - The UMC500 is on my radar but I have heard some horror stories about accuracy issues with them. I may reach out to haas and see if i can get a test cut done. How extreme were the accuracy issues you experienced? most of my work is +/-.005 with some tighter tolerances up to .0005.

    Chazsani - As to the kitamura, I did not know about this machine I will definitely take a look this evening.

    CG60 - do you own one of the doosans? If so how do you like it? Hows the support? From what I have seen from them I have been impressed, and unlike many people I do like the fanuc control.

    Fal Grunt - I do not need full 5 axis at the moment, although I know if I dont get it I will regret it in the future. Do you own one? How well does the brother do in tool steels? My limited experience with 30 taper machines was in aluminum on an older robodrill mate at a previous employer. Impressive machine speed wise, but didnt have much balls.
    The biggest thing I saw was getting 2 bores lined up at B0 and B180. It was an easy fix though. I just finished the first bore, and at B180 probed the finished bore and set new work offset. If you were ddoing production and an extra 30 seconds (for example, don't know actual time) will kill yhou then it is a problem.

    I did alot of bearing bores in that UMC750 and not one problem with a good quality boring head (bohrstar from Techniks). I was skeptical of using the tool changer for the boring heads trying to hold +/-.0002" on the bores but it did it no problem ( I actually inspected every bore with a bore gage and setting ring in a climate controlled environment ).

    edit: To be fair, I did not ever do full 5 axis simultaneous so I can't say as to the accuracy there. Did some full 4th axis motion and it worked just fine. The biggest game changer to me on 5 axis (or 3+2) is reducing setups. I did prototype engine parts for drones. I had cut some crank housings on a 3 axis machine, and because of the design it worked out to like 10-12 setups (all 6 sides, plus some angled features). Moving them to the 5 axis machine cut the setups to 5 I think ( 1 rough on each side, 1 finish on each side then onto a fixture for the rest of the work using the machine to index to side and angle work)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ewindward View Post
    Fal Grunt - I do not need full 5 axis at the moment, although I know if I dont get it I will regret it in the future. Do you own one? How well does the brother do in tool steels? My limited experience with 30 taper machines was in aluminum on an older robodrill mate at a previous employer. Impressive machine speed wise, but didnt have much balls.
    I recently posted this in another thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    My Speedio has been fantastic as a job shop machine. Is it perfect, no. Is it everything I want? No. Does it cut 65Rc CPM-M4 as well as a Hermle? Nope. Will it hog D2 like a 40 taper Dual Contact 17k lb Mazak? Nope. But damn is it quick to setup on those 1-100 pc jobs. And if I do have a job that is more than one piece, WOW.

    Yamazen is very humble about their accuracies as well. Finished a gauge tonight that when I milled it the top was flat less than .0002”, the sides were perpendicular about .0001”, and it was round, 7” diameter, a little over .0001”.
    30 taper is limiting. But only if you limit yourself and do not allow yourself to change your machining styles. I had a 40 taper machine before my Brother, and no, my Brother cannot take the same cuts. But it still gets parts done WAAAAAYYYY faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Big question is... do you need full 5 axis?

    One of the reasons I picked Brother was their proven durability.

    I am the first to say, I have little to NO experience with Haas. But I have a lot of friends that run them at their day jobs. Not one of them would purchase one themselves. Before buying my Brother, I sat one of my best friends down who runs several different Haas at his day job, and asked him. If someone handed you a $100k to buy a VMC what would you buy? Not one of the machines, new or used, that he listed, was a Haas.

    I do very little production, I do a lot of work for the tool & die industry and manufacturing in general. If I had the cash, and someday when I do have the cash, I will be buying a Brother M140. You get 3 + 2 and turning in a small, accurate, compact package.

    Machine Tools | Brother
    YouTube

    another thread on the subject
    Brother M140X1 As a Prototype/Low Volume Machine
    There has to more to the story here..

    I've run mostly Haas and never had issues. Not the fastest machines, not the most rigid I'll give you that. BUT they will do the work. AND the resale is quite good if you upgrade (or god forbid go belly up). I hear over and over (similar to mastercam bashing) how Haas won't take a cut and I can attest they most certainly will. Not the heaviest for sure, but I have run tool steels through them, hardened tool steel through them, and a shit ton of 4140ph in an SL30 lathe.

    Now in my defense, the machines I started on were old clapped out 1980's off brand (Yam, Eagle..?) with monotone green screens with stupid softkeys that changed the function depending on the page you were on, and where you had to write down your numbers and manually plug them into your G54/55 offset page. When I got my hands on a brand new Haas (2006 maybe) it was like .

    Recently I have a little experience with Mazaks (hate them) and Robodrill (hated that too), but not alot. I am sure they have plenty of 'good' stuff, but it's just not for me. If someone gave me 100k to buy a new VMC, pretty sure Haas would be my only choice. Call me stubborn, or out dated, but I know those machines inside and out (well programming / operation wise) and I have not had issues getting them to make the parts I have run...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    There has to more to the story here..

    I've run mostly Haas and never had issues. Not the fastest machines, not the most rigid I'll give you that. BUT they will do the work. AND the resale is quite good if you upgrade (or god forbid go belly up). I hear over and over (similar to mastercam bashing) how Haas won't take a cut and I can attest they most certainly will. Not the heaviest for sure, but I have run tool steels through them, hardened tool steel through them, and a shit ton of 4140ph in an SL30 lathe.

    Now in my defense, the machines I started on were old clapped out 1980's off brand (Yam, Eagle..?) with monotone green screens with stupid softkeys that changed the function depending on the page you were on, and where you had to write down your numbers and manually plug them into your G54/55 offset page. When I got my hands on a brand new Haas (2006 maybe) it was like .

    Recently I have a little experience with Mazaks (hate them) and Robodrill (hated that too), but not alot. I am sure they have plenty of 'good' stuff, but it's just not for me. If someone gave me 100k to buy a new VMC, pretty sure Haas would be my only choice. Call me stubborn, or out dated, but I know those machines inside and out (well programming / operation wise) and I have not had issues getting them to make the parts I have run...
    Experience is a huge part. Being comfortable with the machine makes your days much easier. As I have said elsewhere, I do not know if it is our HFO, something about our region, really, I do not know. But I have yet to meet anyone in my area that has a Haas and is happy with it.

    My friend that I mentioned runs several Haas VMC's and Lathes. They constantly (as in every month) have issues with their machines. Sometimes it is mechanical, sometimes it is electronic, sometimes it is control, but the support, in my opinion, sounds terrible. Every time there is an issue it means at minimum 2 visits. From the sounds of it, they rarely can fix the issue on the second visit.

    Sometimes the issues are well... what I would consider strange for a major machine tool builder. They got in a brand new lathe and the tailstock was horribly off center. Like .008" off center. When my friend said something to the install tech he looked dumbfounded and said, "Yea... you just program out the taper".

    However, I will absolutely quantify this for everyone who may be reading this. I have not so much as touched a button on a Haas. I did stand in the same room as one once. The parts that came off it were functional, not very pretty, but functional. That is the limit of my personal experience. When I was shopping for a VMC I priced and compared Haas. It was on my list. I considered it with an open mind. But the longevity (I constantly hear Haas is a disposable machine) and the service and support just were not there. I paid a small premium for the Brother when compared to an equally optioned Haas. My opinion is that I got a better machine for that small premium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ewindward View Post
    mike1974 - The UMC500 is on my radar but I have heard some horror stories about accuracy issues with them.


    I may reach out to haas and see if i can get a test cut done.


    How extreme were the accuracy issues you experienced?


    most of my work is +/-.005 with some tighter tolerances up to .0005.

    <snips various>
    I don't think the HAAS UMC 500 has been out long enough to have deserved any "Horror" stories of any kind yet ?

    I know a few "peeps" that have them on order but they have not hit their respective floors yet?

    It's proportionately more rigid design (new frame design) than the UMC 750 (older design) ,

    + the UMC 500 has the new cycloidal drives.

    @Ewindward you know some folks currently driving the UMC 500 ?

    The tolerances you are looking at (in broad strokes) would be doable... Or should be , unless you have tricky form tolerances and geometries.

    ___________________________________


    I don't think there are any sim 5 axis options for Brother machines sold in the USA ? Unless that's changed more recently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    <snip>

    I did alot of bearing bores in that UMC750 and not one problem with a good quality boring head (bohrstar from Techniks). I was skeptical of using the tool changer for the boring heads trying to hold +/-.0002" on the bores but it did it no problem ( I actually inspected every bore with a bore gage and setting ring in a climate controlled environment ).

    <snip>
    Thanks for confirming that as it does seem that at least the HAAS UMC 750 can do some pretty decent larger diameter bores pretty well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    The biggest thing I saw was getting 2 bores lined up at B0 and B180.
    This sounds like a set-up issue to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Experience is a huge part. Being comfortable with the machine makes your days much easier. As I have said elsewhere, I do not know if it is our HFO, something about our region, really, I do not know. But I have yet to meet anyone in my area that has a Haas and is happy with it.
    It is not just your area. My local HFO is terrible (used to be fantastic). My old haas machines take a beating, and are crazy reliable actually.
    But, I will still NEVER buy another one.

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    Re: Post # 14



    __________________________________

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    Yeah I do own the Doosan. It is my first endeavor into 5axis so there has been a learning curve. I haven't been able to machine a lot of parts yet but so far I am impressed. Ellison support has been great, they want to see you succeed with your efforts. Locknut on this forum is a good source of information on Doosans and 5axis machining. The Fanuc control is not a problem, but it is a 20 year upgrade from my 3 axis mill, so it is quite a bit different. One thing to take a close look at, is what CAM package are you going to use and getting a workable post processor. Take your time and make the best choice for yourself.

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    There's another elephant in the room - DMG. Good news - they have some smallish machines, and are generally quite sophisticated. Depending on when/where/what the pricing may surprize you.

    Bad news - their service department has not covered itself in glory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Experience is a huge part. Being comfortable with the machine makes your days much easier. As I have said elsewhere, I do not know if it is our HFO, something about our region, really, I do not know. But I have yet to meet anyone in my area that has a Haas and is happy with it.

    My friend that I mentioned runs several Haas VMC's and Lathes. They constantly (as in every month) have issues with their machines. Sometimes it is mechanical, sometimes it is electronic, sometimes it is control, but the support, in my opinion, sounds terrible. Every time there is an issue it means at minimum 2 visits. From the sounds of it, they rarely can fix the issue on the second visit.

    Sometimes the issues are well... what I would consider strange for a major machine tool builder. They got in a brand new lathe and the tailstock was horribly off center. Like .008" off center. When my friend said something to the install tech he looked dumbfounded and said, "Yea... you just program out the taper".

    However, I will absolutely quantify this for everyone who may be reading this. I have not so much as touched a button on a Haas. I did stand in the same room as one once. The parts that came off it were functional, not very pretty, but functional. That is the limit of my personal experience. When I was shopping for a VMC I priced and compared Haas. It was on my list. I considered it with an open mind. But the longevity (I constantly hear Haas is a disposable machine) and the service and support just were not there. I paid a small premium for the Brother when compared to an equally optioned Haas. My opinion is that I got a better machine for that small premium.
    Ya maybe. I've not run into issues personally too much. We (many years ago) did have a problem one time and they sent a very very green tech out and he completely fucked up the machines' thermal comp (well, it is labeled thermal comp in param,but I think it is just some algorithm with a time factor, but I digress..). Performance wise though, the machines have always done what I expect...

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Thanks for confirming that as it does seem that at least the HAAS UMC 750 can do some pretty decent larger diameter bores pretty well.
    Yes it does, and can.

    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    This sounds like a set-up issue to me.
    I don't understand what you mean? The particular part I was referring to was a part in a vise done in one op (but different B and C axis moves)...? Not sure how setup affects that (it was not moving I know for sure)?

    (I wish I had pics of that part! )

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    Don't look past the Matsuura MX series, though they are a step up in price. I'm 99% that Yamazen supports them on the east coast?

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