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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    There's another elephant in the room - DMG. Good news - they have some smallish machines, and are generally quite sophisticated. Depending on when/where/what the pricing may surprize you.

    Bad news - their service department has not covered itself in glory.
    [emphasis added].




    The DMP 70 with 5 axis option.

    The question remains would the DMP 70 take a 70mm DuMP on one's business ?

    On paper and in the video... Looks amazing.

    The older milltap machines were (as I understand) extremely problematic.

    Seems they have revised and fixed some issues here.

    IF they had a machine that was sound then maybe reliance on lack of DMG Mori support (depending on where you are) would be much less of an issue ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't understand what you mean? The particular part I was referring to was a part in a vise done in one op (but different B and C axis moves)...? Not sure how setup affects that (it was not moving I know for sure)?

    (I wish I had pics of that part! )
    My 5X experience is limited. I know nothing about the UMC. Only worked with a couple trunnions, a couple times.
    But, if your B axis is not set dead center of rotation, your gonna have issues.
    If this is established by probing, and your probe is just a couple tenths out of whack? B180' will double that couple tenths.
    And, if A is not dead nuts flat before B is probed, add in that error.

    I wasn't implying you performed a bad set up. More like the machine had alignment issues from whomever did the alignment?
    Like I said, I am not a 5X guy. I want to be though.
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 11-23-2019 at 09:49 PM.

  3. #23
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    Tell ya what, why don't you guys chip in and buy me a UMC-500 and a MX-330 and I'll run them through their paces and do monthly reports on issues, accuracy, etc. I can do test cuts and trial pieces to see what is the best fit.

    Just trying to be helpful...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    My 5X experience is limited. I know nothing about the UMC. Only worked with a couple trunnions, a couple times.
    But, if your B axis is not set dead center of rotation, your gonna have issues.
    If this is established by probing, and your probe is just a couple tenths out of whack? B180' will double that couple tenths.
    And, if A is not dead nuts flat before B is probed, add in that error.

    I wasn't implying you performed a bad set up. More like the machine had alignment issues from whomever did the alignment?
    Like I said, I am not a 5X guy. I want to be though.
    Possibly... I know I personally ran calibration procedure several times and only got *maybe* .0005 variation between runs (months and months apart). I did run an indicator on the table a few times (sanity check) and never got more than .001" variation at C0 /C180 - B0 / B180 ( on the table surface of give /take 20")...

    I did inspect probe tip and it was always less than .0001" / .0002" runout. Not sure that even would matter that much (.0004" possible difference..?)

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    Not knowing more, that may explain the variance in the bore locations that you saw.

    Were you tilting A 90* and rotating C 180* to make the bores? You mentioned B and C, so it sounds like the Haas is setup different than what I am thinking.

    As cameraman has mentioned in other threads, much of the machine application depends on your work. The machine itself may have some inherent inaccuracies, but with modern in process probing, if this can be accounted for, it adds time, but may be acceptable due to the offset cost.

    Even with the Hermle I ran, there could be accuracy issues with tool deflection and tool wear, so it is just part of the game. However it IS frustrating not knowing where the issue lies.

    With my Brother I have found that the accuracy of diameters is incredible, but it took me a bit to realize that they were off, in a manner of speaking. For example, the gauge I referenced earlier, a 7” diameter, circularity was less than .0001” with a BesTest .0001” indicator. However, on initial inspection it was almost .0003” in circularity. It took me a second to see that the circle I was tramming was offset from the work piece. I moved X .0001 and Y .0001, tada! Circularity was .0001 over a 7” diameter.

    I would guess the Haas you ran had a similar “issue” which was compounded when rotating the piece 180*.

    So to tie this into the original question, this is a good time to broach the subject of labor. Do you have skilled experienced machinists? Dealing with a bit of in-process measuring and positioning might be OK. The less skilled your workforce the more I would lean towards a higher precision more accurate machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Don't look past the Matsuura MX series, though they are a step up in price. I'm 99% that Yamazen supports them on the east coast?
    Umm.. make that 2-3 steps up in price! I think when we were shopping hte MX520(?) was like $250k'ish while the Haas UMC 750 was (more or less all options) $150-160-170k....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Not knowing more, that may explain the variance in the bore locations that you saw.

    Were you tilting A 90* and rotating C 180* to make the bores? You mentioned B and C, so it sounds like the Haas is setup different than what I am thinking.

    As cameraman has mentioned in other threads, much of the machine application depends on your work. The machine itself may have some inherent inaccuracies, but with modern in process probing, if this can be accounted for, it adds time, but may be acceptable due to the offset cost.

    Even with the Hermle I ran, there could be accuracy issues with tool deflection and tool wear, so it is just part of the game. However it IS frustrating not knowing where the issue lies.

    With my Brother I have found that the accuracy of diameters is incredible, but it took me a bit to realize that they were off, in a manner of speaking. For example, the gauge I referenced earlier, a 7” diameter, circularity was less than .0001” with a BesTest .0001” indicator. However, on initial inspection it was almost .0003” in circularity. It took me a second to see that the circle I was tramming was offset from the work piece. I moved X .0001 and Y .0001, tada! Circularity was .0001 over a 7” diameter.

    I would guess the Haas you ran had a similar “issue” which was compounded when rotating the piece 180*.

    So to tie this into the original question, this is a good time to broach the subject of labor. Do you have skilled experienced machinists? Dealing with a bit of in-process measuring and positioning might be OK. The less skilled your workforce the more I would lean towards a higher precision more accurate machine.
    Yes B=A on the UMC 750

    Not sure why when A is the 4th on a HRT rotary for Haas....

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I don't think the HAAS UMC 500 has been out long enough to have deserved any "Horror" stories of any kind yet ?

    I know a few "peeps" that have them on order but they have not hit their respective floors yet?

    It's proportionately more rigid design (new frame design) than the UMC 750 (older design) ,

    + the UMC 500 has the new cycloidal drives.

    @Ewindward you know some folks currently driving the UMC 500 ?
    I do not know anyone running the UMC 500. My post was worded poorly. The horror stories I have heard are from the UMC 750s. Two local companies have both had ongoing issues with the B axis in all 3 machines owned between the two companies. I should not judge the UMC 500 based on this but its still in the back of my mind. I personally did like working with haas machines when I worked for the man. they are not a Mori, but makes good enough parts.

    Im looking closer into the brothers due to the recommendations here. Very impressive machine. This week I will be reaching out to see about checking one out in person and hopefully having a test cut done.

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    There are two Brother S500's with Nikken trunnions listed on ebay right now for $117k
    I want one so bad its not even funny. Currently way out of my reach though. (and I would need the 16k spindle)

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    A well optioned UMC-500 looks to be about $190k and a very well-optioned standalone MX-330 was around $280k when I was shopping. I can't remember the numbers but I *think* they start in the low $220k range stripped down (which I wouldn't recommend). $250k sounds reasonable for a machine with some options on it. A very stripped-down MX-520 was $283k but that may have been a showroom special. I think the PC-10 version was in the mid $300k range decently optioned? Too many numbers in my head and not a good enough memory. I left all the quotes at the old day job.

    I'm not saying it is the right choice for everyone, but if you look at investment over time, which is going to have more parts and service calls into it after 10 years? What does downtime cost? It is easy for us to look at upfront cost only, but honestly I might pay 10% more for a machine just to have Yamazen servicing it. Around here they are the gold standard. I'd also easily pay out of pocket for CAMplete (which comes with the Matsuuras). It seriously made 5-axis so easy starting out. It was one year and one day since I first touched a CNC machine that I was programming/cutting press die tooling on a 5-axis. It was that easy. If they already have a machine model I think seats start around $5k. Again, I'd pay that in a heartbeat.

    I didn't see anyone mention Hurco... I HATE Hurco controls but they do have budget 5-axis options. I also hated how much slop the ballscrews had in them in brand new machines from the factory. Without scales (we had VMs) I don't know how those machines could make anything correctly.

    One thing someone else mentioned - I also would stay away from a trunnion on a 3-axis bed. The ergonomics SUCK. Even the MX-520 versus the GENOS 460-5AX was the difference between loading parts about three inches in front of your belt buckle versus at arms' reach at your rib cage (in favor of the MX). Lifting stuff up and into a machine is no fun, and you also end up with a much bigger footprint machine than you "need" to get the work envelope in 5-axis. A 5-axis only trunnion or knuckle machine is a much better choice IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    There are two Brother S500's with Nikken trunnions listed on ebay right now for $117k
    I want one so bad its not even funny. Currently way out of my reach though. (and I would need the 16k spindle)
    Saw those. Those Nikkens are $45k? If you think about it though, with the Specials brother ran on the 500’s, you probably could have gotten the 500 and the 5ax, for less than the listed eBay price NEW. Maybe not optioned out. . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Saw those. Those Nikkens are $45k? If you think about it though, with the Specials brother ran on the 500’s, you probably could have gotten the 500 and the 5ax, for less than the listed eBay price NEW. Maybe not optioned out. . .
    IMO the used machines should be more in the $60 to $80k range depending upon condition and what is included. I typically recommend the Yukiwa TNT-100 rotary:

    2012-08-06-12.46.09_resized_6.jpg

    20170104_090449_1505405818575_resized.jpg

    Compact, fast, reliable and accurate. List price about $39k. I also recommend to anyone considering a used machine that you check with Yamazen. You can get details and info about what you are looking at and possibly you may find there is a new option that would run you the same or not much more. A great example is a guy that recently bought an older brother, went through all the trouble of moving it into his shop, then found out it was conversational programming only. So not useful to him. Doing a little checking would have saved him a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    A great example is a guy that recently bought an older brother, went through all the trouble of moving it into his shop, then found out it was conversational programming only. So not useful to him. Doing a little checking would have saved him a lot.
    When did the brother move towards CNC?I had an opportunity to buy a brother many years ago but it turned out to be a conversational control (TC229 i think) so I decided to pass. I still have an opportunity to pick up a 2001 TC-S2A-0 for a song, and have a couple light milling aluminum jobs that would fit it well but I dont know anything about the controls, would need CNC and/or dripfeed. For the money I may just grab it and get my feet wet with the 30 taper/brother machines. Isn't like it takes up very much space.

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    Brother has been offering CNC machines since 1985. Joe Tsun in Connecticut has been running and servicing them since 1985! The S2A machines are nice. They can all run Gcode. The O means it has Extended X travel, something like an S700 Speedio. Trouble with being that old is the condition is a big ? mark. Drip feed wasn't standard in 2001. Someone may have upgraded it along the way or you can possibly upgrade it for around $5k I think. The performance of that nearly 20 year old machine would not be a good test of what a new Speedio is capable of. May be good enough for your needs though. You should have an experienced person check it out. My .05 Keep the questions coming! Happy to help

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ewindward View Post
    When did the brother move towards CNC?I had an opportunity to buy a brother many years ago but it turned out to be a conversational control (TC229 i think) so I decided to pass. I still have an opportunity to pick up a 2001 TC-S2A-0 for a song, and have a couple light milling aluminum jobs that would fit it well but I dont know anything about the controls, would need CNC and/or dripfeed. For the money I may just grab it and get my feet wet with the 30 taper/brother machines. Isn't like it takes up very much space.
    If I could pick up an old brother like that for a song I wouldn't be posting about it, I would be trying to learn how to sing!

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    Just my 2 cents: Been running a Haas UMC 750 with Renishaw probing since mid 2016...programming, setup and finish...also run (2) 3+2 mills...with accurate setups, they all will hold your mentioned tolerances. Due to your stating that you are running small batch parts (which is exactly what we do), I would defiantly recommend looking at the Haas UMC 500. The machines work very well in a job shop environment but, I would not recommend them for production. We routinely hold tolerances of +/- .001 and have held tighter when needed. Best of luck on your search and decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Tell ya what, why don't you guys chip in and buy me a UMC-500 and a MX-330 and I'll run them through their paces and do monthly reports on issues, accuracy, etc. I can do test cuts and trial pieces to see what is the best fit.

    Just trying to be helpful...
    I volunteer to help Fal. Send one machine to me and one to him, and in a couple of years we'll swap and compare notes. Should have some really good answers for you in ... what do you say, Fal - four years sound about right?

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    Ha! No way the guy that gets the Matsuura first is gonna give it up.

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    GCMAN - why do you think the UMC would not be suitable for a production shop? Too slow? Too much chasing of tolerances? ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I don't think the HAAS UMC 500 has been out long enough to have deserved any "Horror" stories of any kind yet ?

    I know a few "peeps" that have them on order but they have not hit their respective floors yet?

    It's proportionately more rigid design (new frame design) than the UMC 750 (older design) ,

    + the UMC 500 has the new cycloidal drives.

    @Ewindward you know some folks currently driving the UMC 500 ?

    The tolerances you are looking at (in broad strokes) would be doable... Or should be , unless you have tricky form tolerances and geometries.

    ___________________________________


    I don't think there are any sim 5 axis options for Brother machines sold in the USA ? Unless that's changed more recently.
    ours comes in in 2 weeks, looking forward to seeing how it does!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    A well optioned UMC-500 looks to be about $190k and a very well-optioned standalone MX-330 was around $280k when I was shopping. I can't remember the numbers but I *think* they start in the low $220k range stripped down (which I wouldn't recommend). $250k sounds reasonable for a machine with some options on it. A very stripped-down MX-520 was $283k but that may have been a showroom special. I think the PC-10 version was in the mid $300k range decently optioned? Too many numbers in my head and not a good enough memory. I left all the quotes at the old day job.

    I'm not saying it is the right choice for everyone, but if you look at investment over time, which is going to have more parts and service calls into it after 10 years? What does downtime cost? It is easy for us to look at upfront cost only, but honestly I might pay 10% more for a machine just to have Yamazen servicing it. Around here they are the gold standard. I'd also easily pay out of pocket for CAMplete (which comes with the Matsuuras). It seriously made 5-axis so easy starting out. It was one year and one day since I first touched a CNC machine that I was programming/cutting press die tooling on a 5-axis. It was that easy. If they already have a machine model I think seats start around $5k. Again, I'd pay that in a heartbeat.

    I didn't see anyone mention Hurco... I HATE Hurco controls but they do have budget 5-axis options. I also hated how much slop the ballscrews had in them in brand new machines from the factory. Without scales (we had VMs) I don't know how those machines could make anything correctly.

    One thing someone else mentioned - I also would stay away from a trunnion on a 3-axis bed. The ergonomics SUCK. Even the MX-520 versus the GENOS 460-5AX was the difference between loading parts about three inches in front of your belt buckle versus at arms' reach at your rib cage (in favor of the MX). Lifting stuff up and into a machine is no fun, and you also end up with a much bigger footprint machine than you "need" to get the work envelope in 5-axis. A 5-axis only trunnion or knuckle machine is a much better choice IMHO.
    our UMC500 was 170k OTD after some discounts (60 tools, TSC, chip conveyors etc)
    camplete is a LOT more than 5k for a seat. we have one with our Matsuura LX-160. the quote to get a model for the haas was another 18k. but it IS amazing software.


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