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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    GCMAN - why do you think the UMC would not be suitable for a production shop? Too slow? Too much chasing of tolerances? ???
    Depends on the "production" you speak of...? High volume (1k +..?) or lower volumes...

    I would say it would be fine for lower production / lower tolerance parts (that you don't need to multi-probe positions...)

    It can do more high tolerance parts, IMO (and I have done with a UMC 750), but will need to add probing cycles..

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    our UMC500 was 170k OTD after some discounts (60 tools, TSC, chip conveyors etc)
    camplete is a LOT more than 5k for a seat. we have one with our Matsuura LX-160. the quote to get a model for the haas was another 18k. but it IS amazing software.
    Not CAMplete*, but you *should* be able to get a full 5 axis post + full sim for 4-5K through postability...

    *CAMplete does some cool shit not doubt (used it with a robo and 5th axis Nikken), but the post/sim I used from postability was pretty nice too...

  3. #43
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    No mention of the Hermle C250? Great entry level 5x machine at a very affordable price.

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    The C250 is about $390k from what I got quoted. Only 30 tools was the biggest limitation I saw. Factory automation will integrate from what I recall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Depends on the "production" you speak of...? High volume (1k +..?) or lower volumes...

    I would say it would be fine for lower production / lower tolerance parts (that you don't need to multi-probe positions...)

    It can do more high tolerance parts, IMO (and I have done with a UMC 750), but will need to add probing cycles..
    was talking to haas apps engineer yesterday about the tolerance issues and bores not lining up, he said thats more evident when DWO are used instead of center of rotation. said if MRZP is used it should be a lot more accurate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Not CAMplete*, but you *should* be able to get a full 5 axis post + full sim for 4-5K through postability...

    *CAMplete does some cool shit not doubt (used it with a robo and 5th axis Nikken), but the post/sim I used from postability was pretty nice too...
    never heard of them.

    camplete is awesome! we love ours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    was talking to haas apps engineer yesterday about the tolerance issues and bores not lining up, he said thats more evident when DWO are used instead of center of rotation. said if MRZP is used it should be a lot more accurate
    The parameters for MRZP never changed more than (the equivalent*) of maybe .0005" ?

    *When you run it it generates numbers that I think are encoder counts...

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    never heard of them.

    camplete is awesome! we love ours.
    Specific to Mastercam I guess.

    Postability | Mastercam Post Processors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    The parameters for MRZP never changed more than (the equivalent*) of maybe .0005" ?

    *When you run it it generates numbers that I think are encoder counts...
    from what i understood, if you program by picking up the stock corner/center etc - and use dynamic work offset, it wont be as accurate. if you program using the machine xyzbc 0, the control doesnt need to do any additional calculations on where that stock is after you rotate/tilt the table. thats where most of the error comes from according to the haas guy.
    not sure if that makes sense or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    from what i understood, if you program by picking up the stock corner/center etc - and use dynamic work offset, it wont be as accurate. if you program using the machine xyzbc 0, the control doesnt need to do any additional calculations on where that stock is after you rotate/tilt the table. thats where most of the error comes from according to the haas guy.
    not sure if that makes sense or not.
    I understand completely. I've used both DWO and TCP and center of rotation. I had a 5th axis vise on a riser that had a plug on the bottom to locate it centered on the table. Keep in mind you are talking to a Haas employee about Haas accuracy. Don't get me wrong, I am a Haas fan, but I also know what I saw using the UMC750 day in and out for a few years.

    And this would have been one of the first few (not literal few, but in the first year of production maybe) models. They might have improved that accuracy considerably by now, I don't know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I understand completely. I've used both DWO and TCP and center of rotation. I had a 5th axis vise on a riser that had a plug on the bottom to locate it centered on the table. Keep in mind you are talking to a Haas employee about Haas accuracy. Don't get me wrong, I am a Haas fan, but I also know what I saw using the UMC750 day in and out for a few years.

    And this would have been one of the first few (not literal few, but in the first year of production maybe) models. They might have improved that accuracy considerably by now, I don't know...
    i'm by no means claiming what i'm saying is true, just relaying what i was told. our UMC 500 gets here next week so i'll be able to see for myself real soon!

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    I would humbly request extensive reporting on your experiences.

    While I would personally lean towards a Brother m140, the price point for the UMC 500 is mighty tempting IF the accuracy is acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I would humbly request extensive reporting on your experiences.

    While I would personally lean towards a Brother m140, the price point for the UMC 500 is mighty tempting IF the accuracy is acceptable.
    i'll do my best.

    what would be a good test to run to check accuracy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i'll do my best.

    what would be a good test to run to check accuracy?
    I would start checking the bore issue I had on the 750. A simple block. Drill/bore @B90 and C0, then rotate C180 and bore again and see if they line up. Alternately, bore all the way through from one side then probe at 180deg and see if the numbers match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I would start checking the bore issue I had on the 750. A simple block. Drill/bore @B90 and C0, then rotate C180 and bore again and see if they line up. Alternately, bore all the way through from one side then probe at 180deg and see if the numbers match.
    i'm assuming the further away from the center the larger potential error would be. drill/bore half way through then flip and drill/bore half way through and check mismatch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    from what i understood, if you program by picking up the stock corner/center etc - and use dynamic work offset, it wont be as accurate. if you program using the machine xyzbc 0, the control doesnt need to do any additional calculations on where that stock is after you rotate/tilt the table. thats where most of the error comes from according to the haas guy.
    not sure if that makes sense or not.
    Sounds like that Haas guy doesn't know squat. If your MRZP settings are correct, there wont be any difference programming from traditional centerpoint or from the part with DWO. You need the centerpoint to be correct programming either way anyway, so how would it be off?


    DWO just translates the workoffset as you rotate. Simple calculation to rotate a point, like:

    x'= x*cosΘ-y*sinΘ
    y'= x*sinΘ+y*cosΘ

    I use a macro for 5axis DWO using G52 to offset. All it does is rotate about C first, then B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Sounds like that Haas guy doesn't know squat. If your MRZP settings are correct, there wont be any difference programming from traditional centerpoint or from the part with DWO. You need the centerpoint to be correct programming either way anyway, so how would it be off?


    DWO just translates the workoffset as you rotate. Simple calculation to rotate a point, like:

    x'= x*cosΘ-y*sinΘ
    y'= x*sinΘ+y*cosΘ

    I use a macro for 5axis DWO using G52 to offset. All it does is rotate about C first, then B.
    I’ve been thinking of a 5axis rotation macro and came across this post, would you mind elaborating the maths or sharing a snippet of the macro. How does it handle deviations between rotary axis’s. I can follow for one rotation axis but when I think about adding another axis with different y and z machine zeros my eyes roll back into my head and I glaze over.

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    I wonder how much of the UMC750's reputation for inaccuracy is a result of that model not having rotary encoders on the B/C axes?

    Of course, the UMC1000 and 500 both are of the Gen 3 engineering core, so they have those upgraded rotary guts and encoders, as well as a bunch of other new tricks. IDK why anyone would buy a UMC 750 right now when it is obvious that Haas is going to be sending those upgrades to that machine literally any day now.


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