Small lathe/swiss options.................

david n · Jan 30, 2018

What's out there that won't break the bank? (usedwise) I don't need a $100k-$250k swiss. 2nd spindle wouldn't be crucial either. Something for small pins, screws, hardware under 1/2"Ø. Not much for milling...maybe a slot or hex. Could be done 2nd OP'd on a mill. What about a Hardinge GT27 or similar? Tiny compact turning center...................What's out there?

mhajicek · Jan 30, 2018

There are some cheap ones on Ebay.

Volitan · Jan 30, 2018

I know 2 people who have Nomura's and like them. Here's an example of one:
24 Nomura NN2B5 CNC Swiss Lathe, Sub Spindle Live Tools /Video | eBay

Gosiger in Ohio used to sell parts for them but I don't see it listed on their website anymore.

Guest · Jan 30, 2018

Are they for parts I made for you in the past? Ha,ha, if so no hard feelings for wanting to do them yourself. If so stay away from Star Swiss, unless you want to spend $75k for something less than a half dozen years old, older than that they have poor support and a lot of ROM chips fail that only Star can take care of at the tune of $1500 + each.

david n · Jan 30, 2018

Dualkit said:
Are they for parts I made for you in the past? Ha,ha, if so no hard feelings for wanting to do them yourself. If so stay away from Star Swiss, unless you want to spend $75k for something less than a half dozen years old, older than that they have poor support and a lot of ROM chips fail that only Star can take care of at the tune of $1500 + each.

Yeah, some of the parts you make. But there's some new stuff happenin 'round here. Looking at project that requires a bunch of specialty screws, pins and the like......(think guns). I want to be able to run 'em in house and be able to prototype/change design at the drop of a hat. I have two turning centers that would be capable of running some of the small stuff. But we all know how much of a pain it is running some 6-32 and 4-40 screws on a big machine. Plus both machines are fairly busy, so spindle time is hard to come by.................

Alloy Mcgraw · Jan 30, 2018

I have two Tsugami Swiss machines, both I bought used.

For stuff like you describe that is not too complex you can do alright on the used market. Some of the slightly older machines can make that stuff, no need to pay for anything fancy if you don't need it. My Tsugamis are the most trouble free machines I have, and they can print money....IF you have the right work for them.

They literally run all day, everyday. One has missed a week last year because of live tool gears. REM dinged me for replacements. :eek:

I have quoted some small gun parts that would have been perfect for the swiss machines, except the guys I was quoted against basically make the parts for nothing imo. Looking at one particular part I quoted, I found out later what another guy was making them for and I just laughed.

Nothing quite like loading the magazine full of 12' bars and watching finished parts come off the conveyer on the other end.

michiganbuck · Jan 30, 2018

This might fir you bill.. have no idea about condition ..but lookd nice
Swiss Citizen Cincom L16 CNC Lathe with FMB Barfeed - tools - by owner - sale

danrudolph · Jan 30, 2018

michiganbuck said:
This might fir you bill.. have no idea about condition ..but lookd nice
Swiss Citizen Cincom L16 CNC Lathe with FMB Barfeed - tools - by owner - sale

That machine is the same model I learned on, no sub or live tools. It ad says it has a pick off spindle, it does not. Fixed guide bushing so it will take more babysitting.

In this day and age, you will grow weary of that control instantly. One second or more to scroll a page of the program. And figure on programming it at the control, all though it is theoretically possible to RS232 transfer.

However, it would make you little screws all day long without much trouble. I sold mine for $3,500 about 5 years ago.

RevetsP · Jan 30, 2018

david n said:
What's out there that won't break the bank? (usedwise) I don't need a $100k-$250k swiss. 2nd spindle wouldn't be crucial either. Something for small pins, screws, hardware under 1/2"Ø. Not much for milling...maybe a slot or hex. Could be done 2nd OP'd on a mill. What about a Hardinge GT27 or similar? Tiny compact turning center...................What's out there?

New machine? Citizen L12

Used, you can find a Citizen B12 for pretty darn cheap I would guess. The B12 would be a bit more awkward with the control like alot of Fanuc machines. Citizen service is great. Citizen will support you.... even on a 20 year old machine.

Alberic · Jan 31, 2018

david n said:
What's out there that won't break the bank? (usedwise) I don't need a $100k-$250k swiss. 2nd spindle wouldn't be crucial either. Something for small pins, screws, hardware under 1/2"Ø. Not much for milling...maybe a slot or hex. Could be done 2nd OP'd on a mill. What about a Hardinge GT27 or similar? Tiny compact turning center...................What's out there?

HI David,

You might try a Ganesh 32CY, or NCY. They're 1.25" OD not-quite-a-swiss machines. Sliding headstock, live tools in both axes, and no guide bushings. Will talk to a barfeed. I run a Ganesh 32CS now, which is basically the same machine, but with a sub spindle too. The CY version is just the front half of the sub-spindle machine. I ran a CY for about 2 years before moving up to the CS. They're sort of the low end of swiss(like) machines, but both of our machines have been completely bulletproof, and real workhorses.
The last time I saw a CY or NCY come up at auction, it went around $17K or so. Figure 20ish moved and running. Control is basic, but nice. Figure on doing all programming on a computer, and punting over, which is easy. It has a *really* nice proveout function which lets you handwheel your way through the code. You crank, it moves. Crank backwards, it backs up. Speed of cranking =speed of move. That alone has saved me thousands in tooling that didn't get busted, and crashes that didn't happen. (I think most swisses have this, but I know for a fact that the Ganeshes do, and it's worth its weight in gold.)
They're not a Star or Citizen, but they don't cost like one either.

FWIW,
Brian

danrudolph · Jan 31, 2018

RevetsP said:
New machine? Citizen L12

Used, you can find a Citizen B12 for pretty darn cheap I would guess. The B12 would be a bit more awkward with the control like alot of Fanuc machines. Citizen service is great. Citizen will support you.... even on a 20 year old machine.

Good advice on the B12, find one that has two live tools and you’d have a slick little screw making setup for maybe $20k.

New L12s are amazing, but is in the OPs “$100-250k is too much” machine range.

Guest · Jan 31, 2018

RevetsP said:
New machine? Citizen L12

Used, you can find a Citizen B12 for pretty darn cheap I would guess. The B12 would be a bit more awkward with the control like alot of Fanuc machines. Citizen service is great. Citizen will support you.... even on a 20 year old machine.

I haven't ran a Citizen since I worked for the man in the early 90's. I keep hearing about how great their service and support is, while no one has anything good to say about Star service and support. Since they make similar products I don't understand why Citizen hasn't put Star out of business by now.

FredC · Jan 31, 2018

The OP asked about a GT27 Hardinge. They could do a lot of the same work as a Swiss as long as the length to OD ratio is not to high. The parts in the photo were done on a GT, the aluminum parts on the left were done in 2 operations both end s and the OD were finished in the first op, counterbore on the end, notches on the flange and pin holes in the second. The threaded studs were done in one op, the 1/8 bore on the end and the milled threads behind the shoulder needed to be absolutely concentric. The studs were made from 3/8 round bar.
The GT being a conventional machine tool will have a little easier learning curve than a Swiss, I think the Swiss will be more versatile for an experienced Swiss person, but this is a guess since I have only watched them in person for a few minutes.

rlockwood · Jan 31, 2018

FredC said:
The OP asked about a GT27 Hardinge. They could do a lot of the same work as a Swiss as long as the length to OD ratio is not to high. The parts in the photo were done on a GT, the aluminum parts on the left were done in 2 operations both end s and the OD were finished in the first op, counterbore on the end, notches on the flange and pin holes in the second. The threaded studs were done in one op, the 1/8 bore on the end and the milled threads behind the shoulder needed to be absolutely concentric. The studs were made from 3/8 round bar.
The GT being a conventional machine tool will have a little easier learning curve than a Swiss, I think the Swiss will be more versatile for an experienced Swiss person, but this is a guess since I have only watched them in person for a few minutes.

View attachment 219238

I generally agree, but at this point 'swiss' covers a pretty wide swath of machine tools, many of which are quite similar to a GT27 style lathe, both functionally and in operation (programming)

I offer my citizen b12 up as an example, it's dual spindle with 5 OD turning stations, 3 endworking stations and 2 radial live tools. The axis layout makes it appear fairly intimidating, but in reality programming and operation is nearly identical to a GT27, given that it's single channel. OTOH, it's significantly more capable, though perhaps a bit less flexible in tooling arrangement.

Alloy Mcgraw · Jan 31, 2018

Another consideration is part pricing, part volume, lead times, labor costs, etc.

Gang Lathes have their place, as well as Swiss.

As an example. I either no quote or quote high on small run swiss parts....For me that number threshold is usually 1000 pieces depending on the part, and that's already considered low as it is for swiss. I like to be at a few thousand parts at a minimum to offset set-up time. I want to set-up, let her fly, and check parts periodically through out the day. I do make compromises if the part can be made with standard tooling already in the machine.

But for large quantity I wouldn't want to quote against a swiss if I was making the parts with a gang lathe. Other side of that coin is my no quotes for swiss work usually are good candidates for a gang lathe.

Really two different animals.

Job Shopper TN · Jan 31, 2018

Haas started making a dumbed down Swiss-type lathe recently, branded the CL-1. If memory serves it starts around 40k. I doubt it will be as fast as a real Swiss by any means but it should be easy to work with.

mhajicek · Jan 31, 2018

Job Shopper TN said:
Haas started making a dumbed down Swiss-type lathe recently, branded the CL-1. If memory serves it starts around 40k. I doubt it will be as fast as a real Swiss by any means but it should be easy to work with.

I wouldn't call that a Swiss type lathe. It's bar fed, but it doesn't have a sliding headstock and bushing. No way to turn long aspect ratio parts as they're fed out from the bushing as on a Swiss.

John Deere · Jan 31, 2018

Does anyone know a ballpark price on that Hardinge GT27 with subspindle? I didn't know there was a subspindle model of that available.

Nerdlinger · Jan 31, 2018

I bet you could get a used Tsugami or Citizen with sub and magazine bar feed (because I don’t think I’ve ever actuallly seen a new or used swiss lathe without one) for $40-50k.

I’ve got a Hardinge GT but will be getting rid of it once I get every single part I run on into moved over to my Tsugami because the GT offers NOTHING over the sliding headstock machine...at least not for the parts I run. The only advantage the GT has is the tooling plate that slides on and off makes setup quick.

Me likey sub spindles if even just to hold parts during cutoff so there’s no tit to file off.

Small lathe/swiss options.................

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Guest

Guest

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Aluminum

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Aluminum

Guest

Guest

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

Cast Iron

Diamond

Aluminum

Stainless

Similar threads