Spindle won't spin unless it's pushed manually in the start - any tips?

maws · Feb 21, 2020

I have an older CNC mill with Indramat KDA 3.2 spindle drive and Indramat 2AD spindle motor.

I'v had problems with the spindle don't want to spin up, so replaced the spindle drive, but still had same problems, and when doing some more troubleshooting I was trying to manually rotate the spindel, after I'v given it the M03 (spindle start) command, it then will spin up, and I seem to be able to control it's speed etc......

Any tips on what might cause such behaviours ?.

It's a Heidenhain 407 controler, but it gives me no errors in regards to this.

josephk · Feb 21, 2020

maybe you are missing 1 phase of the 3?

macgyver · Feb 21, 2020

One of mine was doing this and it turned out to be a bad power cable going from the spindle drive to the spindle. It had a bad spot in it in the cable chain. Over 20 years of movement finally broke it.

Easiest way to check it is to run a jumper cable from the drive to the spindle. If it fixes it then replace the cable. Use a proper cable made for high flexibility if you do.

Guest · Feb 21, 2020

Jmaks said:
maybe you are missing 1 phase of the 3?

This, check to see if the motor is getting voltage on all 3 legs. If it isn't work backward from there to find the culprit.

gustafson · Feb 21, 2020

If it is not something cable related, and it is a servo drive, check that one of the accel parameters on the TNC is not set at some inappropriately low level

DOes it have rigid tapping enabled?

HAve you had it running previously and has anything happened since it was running properly?

I am surprised no error on the control

programm a rigid tap and see what it does

G00 Proto · Feb 21, 2020

Isn't there some capacitor that bumps the motor on spin-up. Seems like I had one of those shit the bed a few decades ago. I found one at a HVAC supply house and soldered it on and never had another issue.

maws · Feb 21, 2020

gustafson said:
If it is not something cable related, and it is a servo drive, check that one of the accel parameters on the TNC is not set at some inappropriately low level

DOes it have rigid tapping enabled?

HAve you had it running previously and has anything happened since it was running properly?

I am surprised no error on the control

programm a rigid tap and see what it does

I'l go over the cables again, and I will double check the phases as someone pointed out here.

Not sure it it's got rigid tapping (I doubt it as it's an older machine (1991), and I see a parameter MP 3410.3 : 0 "Rigid tapping" so I presume not.

On the spindle drive controller it will give me a "N*NCMD", but afaik that only indicates that it doesn't have the speed that it's supposed to.

I have never had this machine running myself - bought it as a non running machine, and what I'v been doing with it is to change out the spindle drive and powersupply unit (the original powersupply is probably fine, but the old spindle drive didn't output any voltage, and made no "noise" when running, even though it had the greed ready light and the same "N*NCMD" - so the main difference with the new one is that it does output voltage and gives this "n*ncmd" error.

The drive is a Indramat KDA3.2 spindle drive, and the motor is a Indramat 2AD motor.

So I guess maybe that kinda is an error on the spindle drive controler, but the heidenhain does not show any errors.

Some parameters from the machine:

Code:

             ; RAMP SLOPE FOR S-ANALOG (0 - 1.999 V/MS)
MP 3410.0  : 1,999      ; M03/M04
MP 3410.1  : 0,5        ; SPINDLE ORIENTATION
MP 3410.2  : 0,1        ; TAPPING CYCLE
MP 3410.3  : 0          ; RIGID TAPPING

Code:

     ; MP7110 .. MP7150
             ; TAPPING 
             ;=========================================================
             
             ; FEED OVERRIDE WHEN TAPPING (0 - 150 %)
MP 7110.0  : 100        ;MINIMUM
MP 7110.1  : 100        ;MAXIMUM
             
             ; SPINDLE TIMINGS WHEN TAPPING (0 - 65535 sec)
MP 7120.0  : 2          ;DWELL FOR CHANGE IN DIRECTION 
MP 7120.1  : 0          ;ADVANCED SWITCH TIME (ONLY WITH BCD O/P)
MP 7120.2  : 0          ;RUN ON TIME AFTER REACHING HOLE DEPTH 
             
             ; SPINDLE RUN IN CHARACTERISTIC (0.1 - 10 M/MIN) 
MP 7130    : 0,1        ;MATCHING MP1520
             
             ; TRANSIENT RESPONSE OF SPINDLE ON ACCN. (0.01 - 0.999)
MP 7140    : 0,01       ;MATCHING MP1530
             
             ; POSITIONING WINDOW FOR TOOL AXIS (0.0001 - 0.5 MM)
MP 7150    : 0,001
             ;SPINDLE ORIENTATION AT THE BEGINNING OF CYCLE 17
             ;RIGID TAPPING  0=ORIENTATION ACTIV 1=NOT

Code:

           ; ACCELERATION (0.001 - 5.000 M/S^2)
MP 1060.0  : 2          ;X
MP 1060.1  : 2          ;Y
MP 1060.2  : 1,5        ;Z
MP 1060.3  : 0,01       ;IV  
MP 1060.4  : 0,01       ;V
             ; RADIAL ACCELERATION (0.001 - 5.000 M/S^2)  
MP 1070    : 0,4

Code:

           ;=========================================================
             ; MP 3000 .. 3999 
             ; SPINDLE-CONTROL 
             ;=========================================================
             
             ; SPINDLE-SPEED O/P,SPINDLE ORIENTATION
             ; 0 = NO OUTPUT OF SPINGLE RPM
             ; 1 = CODED   , ONLY IF RPM CHANGES
             ; 2 = CODED   , WITH EACH TOOL 
             ; 3 = S-ANALOG, GEAR SWITCH SIGNAL ONLY IF GEAR CHANGES
             ; 4 = S-ANALOG, GEAR SWITCH SIGNAL WITH EACH TOOL CHANGE
             ; 5 = S-ANALOG, WITHOUT GEAR SWITCHING SIGNAL
             ; 6 = S-ANALOG+ORIENTATION, GEAR S/W SIGNAL IF GEAR CHANGE
             ; 7 = S-ANALOG+ORIENTATION, GEAR S/W SIGNAL WITH TOOL CHANGE
             ; 8 = S-ANALOG+ORIENTATION, WITHOUT GEAR S/W SIGNAL
MP 3010    : 7
             ; SPECIAL FUNCTION O/P IF MP3010<3
             ; 0 = NO SPECIAL FUNCTION
             ; 1 = O/P VOLTAGE PROPORTIONAL TO FEEDRATE
             ; 2 = O/P VOLTAGE GOVERNED BY PLC
             ; FEEDRATE FOR OUTPUT OF 10 VOLTS (MP3011=1)
             ; LIMIT RPM CODE (0 - 99999)
MP 3020    : 1991
             ; AXIS STANDSTILL ON TOOLCALL WITH SPINDLE O/P
MP 3030    : 0          ;0=AXIS HALT/1=NO AXIS HALT
             
             ; PROGRAMMING THE RPM S=0
MP 3120    : 0          ;0=PERMITTED 1=NOT PERMITTED
             
             ; POLARITY S-ANALOGUE
             ; 0=BIPOLAR, M3=POS./M4=NEG.
             ; 1=BIPOLAR, M3=NEG./M4=POS.
             ; 2=UNIPOLAR POSITIVE
             ; 3=UNIPOLAR NEGATIVE
MP 3130    : 1          ; COUNTING DIRECTION OF SPINDLE ENCODER
MP 3140    : 1          ;0=POS./1=NEG. 
             
             ; ANALOGUE VOLTAGE FOR GEAR RANGES(0 - 9.999 VOLT) 
MP 3210.0  : 9,999      ;GEAR RANGE 0
MP 3210.1  : 9,999      ;           1
MP 3210.2  : 0          ;           2
MP 3210.3  : 0          ;           3
MP 3210.4  : 0          ;           4
MP 3210.5  : 0          ;           5
MP 3210.6  : 0          ;           6
MP 3210.7  : 0          ;           7
             
             ;REGULATING RANGE FOR S-ANALOG (0 - 9.999 VOLT)
MP 3240.1  : 0,01       ;MINIMUM ANALOGUE VOLTAGE
MP 3240.2  : 0,05       ;VOLTAGE DURING GEAR CHANGE
             
             ; LIMIT S-OVERRIDE (0 - 150 %)
MP 3310.0  : 120        ;MAXIMUM    
MP 3310.1  : 50         ;MINIMUM
             
             ; RAMP SLOPE FOR S-ANALOG (0 - 1.999 V/MS)
MP 3410.0  : 1,999      ; M03/M04
MP 3410.1  : 0,5        ; SPINDLE ORIENTATION
MP 3410.2  : 0,1        ; TAPPING CYCLE
MP 3410.3  : 0          ; RIGID TAPPING 
             
             ; POSITION WINDON FOR SPINDLE 1 INCREMENT=0,088 DEGREE)
MP 3420    : 10         ; SPINDLE-PRESET (0 - 360 DEGREE)
MP 3430    : 0          ; KV-FACTOR FOR SPINDLE ORIENTATION (0.1 - 10)
MP 3440.0  : 0,8        ;GEAR RANGE 0
MP 3440.1  : 0,8        ;           1
MP 3440.2  : 0,1        ;           2
MP 3440.3  : 0,1        ;           3
MP 3440.4  : 0,1        ;           4
MP 3440.5  : 0,1        ;           5
MP 3440.6  : 0,1        ;           6
MP 3440.7  : 0,1        ;           7
             
             ; RPM FOR GEAR RANGES (0 - 99999.999)
MP 3510.0  : 1000       ;GEAR RANGE 0
MP 3510.1  : 4000       ;           1
MP 3510.2  : 0          ;           2
MP 3510.3  : 0          ;           3
MP 3510.4  : 0          ;           4
MP 3510.5  : 0          ;           5
MP 3510.6  : 0          ;           6
MP 3510.7  : 0          ;           7
             
             ;MAX RPM LIMIT FOR GEAR RANGES (0 - 99999.999)
MP 3515.0  : 1000       ;GEAR RANGE 0
MP 3515.1  : 4000       ;           1
MP 3515.2  : 0          ;           2
MP 3515.3  : 0          ;           3
MP 3515.4  : 0          ;           4
MP 3515.5  : 0          ;           5
MP 3515.6  : 0          ;           6
MP 3515.7  : 0          ;           7
             
             
             ; SPINDLE SPEED FOR ORIENTATION (0 - 99999.999) 
MP 3520.0  : 0          ;RPM  IF M2501 SET
MP 3520.1  : 50         ;RPM SPINDLE ORIENTATION

maws · Feb 21, 2020

G00 Proto said:
Isn't there some capacitor that bumps the motor on spin-up. Seems like I had one of those shit the bed a few decades ago. I found one at a HVAC supply house and soldered it on and never had another issue.

Noe idea if that's something that's on this, the spindle drive I used as a replacement where supposedly coming from a working machine...but no guarantee I guess

maws · Feb 21, 2020

Can it be related to the spindle being a bit to hard for the motor to get it to start ? (it doesn't seem very hard to rotate by hand, but unsure how "easy" they should rotate - it had now been sitting for quite some time, so I will go over again with greasing up grease points etc now that I know it actually can run. I hear a slight "knocking" sound when it goes at low speed, but not really something I would say sounds "wrong"

I made a video, where one can hear the "knocking" sound:

YouTube

maws · Feb 24, 2020

I done some more troubleshooting, and it seem like the "backup" spindle drive is also faulty (a bit less then the main) , as one of the phases on the output is missing, measured the current on the phases today and 2 og them got current flowing, and one have 0 current, so at least I guess that is turning out to be the culprit on this machine....

Anyone done any repair/troubleshooting on these Indramat KDA 3.2-100-3-A00-W1, or maybe got some schematics for them ?.

huleo · Feb 24, 2020

The very first thing you do when a motor drive has issues is check the health of the motor its driving! You need to disconnect the 3 leads between the drive and motor and test the windings and test each to ground. Even better, also megger test it. Because you do not have a drive alarm, I am highly suspect of the motor. If one winding is open, the drive may not detect that but if the IGBTs have issues, it should be showing an alarm. I say should because I don't know that drive.

What is very common is people see that a drive is not working and replace it. If it toasted due to a bad motor, it will probably toast the replacement drive. Motors need tested when a drive fails.

Yes, your symptoms point to a lost phase. there are no capacitors that would cause this.

In many cases with a phase loss on a motor, a drive may overload because it will try to start a motor that won't start due to a a missing phase. That makes me think your drive is running in open loop but just a guess.

You may also find a simple wiring issue causing this. Investigate.

maws · Feb 25, 2020

huleo said:
The very first thing you do when a motor drive has issues is check the health of the motor its driving! You need to disconnect the 3 leads between the drive and motor and test the windings and test each to ground. Even better, also megger test it. Because you do not have a drive alarm, I am highly suspect of the motor. If one winding is open, the drive may not detect that but if the IGBTs have issues, it should be showing an alarm. I say should because I don't know that drive.

What is very common is people see that a drive is not working and replace it. If it toasted due to a bad motor, it will probably toast the replacement drive. Motors need tested when a drive fails.

Yes, your symptoms point to a lost phase. there are no capacitors that would cause this.

In many cases with a phase loss on a motor, a drive may overload because it will try to start a motor that won't start due to a a missing phase. That makes me think your drive is running in open loop but just a guess.

You may also find a simple wiring issue causing this. Investigate.

I have measured the motor, and the wiring going to it, and all seem to be fine - although I haven't megged it yet, but at least I found the error in the "backup" spindle drive (which is the one that actually runs the motor with some help) - but one of the outputs are "blown"...

- and still no error from the drive

The "main" spindle drive doesn't run anything at all, even with help, but looks clean inside, but have to do some more troubleshooting...

gustafson · Feb 26, 2020

Yeah That'll do it

I suppose since you have got two dead drives, you could get adventurous and remove and replace the burnt components

Scruffy887 · Feb 26, 2020

Find an old lawn mower and transplant the pull type recoil starter on top? Not sure how you would put that in G code.

maws · Feb 26, 2020

gustafson said:
Yeah That'll do it

I suppose since you have got two dead drives, you could get adventurous and remove and replace the burnt components

Yea, the plan is to at least try to sort out the board I know is partly broken (blown output), but those components seem to be easily available - although haven't had the board out just yet so not full overview yet of the damage

maws · May 8, 2020

For records I thought I'd post back here as I seem to have successfully repaired my original spindle drive (hoping to repair my backup as well), the things that turned out to be wrong (even though I haven't put the machine thru full rpm etc yet, but the spindle is working now) was probably caused by bad capacitors on the power-output board, which in turn had taken down some mosfet transistors in the "powersupply" area of the board, basically making the power output board totally dead.

I replaced all the capacitors on the board, and replaced 2x mosfet transistors, after this the spindle spinned up like it should

SteveEx30 · May 11, 2020

Scruffy887 said:
Find an old lawn mower and transplant the pull type recoil starter on top? Not sure how you would put that in G code.

Now this is thinking!!

Nerdlinger · May 13, 2020

maws said:
For records I thought I'd post back here as I seem to have successfully repaired my original spindle drive (hoping to repair my backup as well), the things that turned out to be wrong (even though I haven't put the machine thru full rpm etc yet, but the spindle is working now) was probably caused by bad capacitors on the power-output board, which in turn had taken down some mosfet transistors in the "powersupply" area of the board, basically making the power output board totally dead.

I replaced all the capacitors on the board, and replaced 2x mosfet transistors, after this the spindle spinned up like it should

Good job! Very cool!

Spindle won't spin unless it's pushed manually in the start - any tips?

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