Suggestions for Large 5 axis mill to cut structural aerospace parts

lowCountryCamo · Sep 14, 2018

Our management is thinking about buying another large 5 axis mill. It will run only Al 7075. Our parts range from 2" x 12" x 36" to 6" x 40" x 120". Machines that will not fit the larger parts are still welcome. We now have 3 SNK's 5x horizontals that are not holding up mechanically. 20,000 rpm spindles are lasting about 14 months and we never go above 16,000. A known bad design. They have improved the new models but we are still shy of SNK. I have heard Makino Mag and Eco Speed being mentioned but I don't know them. I think a large 5x horizontal with a large tombstone would fit some of our mid sized parts to free up time on our larger machines, so they run only large parts. But does something like that exist? I know we need a plus 20,000 spindle that will run at top speed 80 hrs a week. I wish I was at the show this week. I will be one of the programmers of said mill so I am very interested.

Thanks,

Steve A

Vancbiker · Sep 14, 2018

The shop I retired from installed a Makino MAG1 to produce a family of parts that were AL7050 forgings about 10"x16"x40". 32kRPM and ~100HP. Cycle time from the machine it replaced dropped from 13 hours to 4.5 hours. Spindles seemed to last ~4000 cut hours when running mostly 28-32k rpm. It was also being run as a Makino tech said "harder than most folks would do". Has a 60" cylindrical envelope. Nice machine.

cameraman · Sep 15, 2018

First thing that came to mind was mitsuiseiki (not sure what your budget is ?)

Mitsui Seiki USA - Jig Borers, Jig Grinders, Horizontal and Vertical Machining Centers

http://www.mitsuiseiki.com/news/Hard Metal Machines - Cover Story - Mar 2013 CTE.pdf

^^^ big swing on big trunnion.

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@Lowcountrycamo How's the hurricane and did you get your Okuma spindle Z problem fixed ? Wanted to ask what Okuma 5 axis machine were you running ?

Vancbiker · Sep 15, 2018

While Mitsui Seiki makes a really nice machine tool, the last time I looked at them they did not have a machine focused on high performance machining of aluminum aero structures. Have they come out with one now? If the OP was looking for a hard metal 5 axis machine, the Mitsui would certainly be a contender.

litlerob1 · Sep 15, 2018

Before 6 months ago I'd never even heard of WFL, but the name seems to be coming up a lot in the Aero/defense community. There's a couple articles on MMS online. I have no personal experience. No idea what computer is making it go, but might be worth a look.

R

cameraman · Sep 15, 2018

Vancbiker said:
While Mitsui Seiki makes a really nice machine tool, the last time I looked at them they did not have a machine focused on high performance machining of aluminum aero structures. Have they come out with one now? If the OP was looking for a hard metal 5 axis machine, the Mitsui would certainly be a contender.

Good point...

I was also wondering about these big 5 axis gantry systems but I hesitate to make any recommendation (cough cough).

dstryr · Sep 15, 2018

Before I bought my first Grob I got a call out of the blue from Handtman about their new 5 axis. I asked my friend if he saw them at IMTS this year and he said he didnt. Tried to find them online and looks like they sold the division to this other company.

They have some really interesting machines targetted for your area. Grob 550/750 would be good for the smaller parts but these guys have capacity to do huge stuff.

bavius technologie gmbh - bavius technologie gmbh

Vancbiker · Sep 15, 2018

Starrag is one of the builders we looked closely at before buying the Makino MAG. Pretty impressive specifications and a serious contender.

We ended up going Makino due to experience with, and familiarity with, their machines. We usually found that Euro machines had long installation/debug times before being ready for production compared to the typical times of high end Japanese builders. The project was on a tight transition schedule.

bryan_machine · Sep 15, 2018

The biggest DMGs are big (3+ meters in X) How their spindles hold up I have no idea.

PROBE · Sep 15, 2018

Ingersoll Powermill series - No.1 in aerospace milling machines.

Mstcnc · Sep 15, 2018

Let´s see, big five-axis aerospace parts:

Five+s group, Forest-Line
Zimmermann
Fooke
Breton
Torres
Jobs
Le Creneau
Huron

lowCountryCamo · Sep 15, 2018

cameraman said:
@Lowcountrycamo How's the hurricane and did you get your Okuma spindle Z problem fixed ? Wanted to ask what Okuma 5 axis machine were you running ?

We did not even get rain in Savannah so we feel lucky. The Okuma in question is a mu6300 5x trunnion. And no I did not get it back up. I am more familiar with Fanuc when I comes to maintenance. Some one is coming monday I believe.

Thanks for asking!

litlerob1 · Sep 16, 2018

Mstcnc said:
Let´s see, big five-axis aerospace parts:

Five+s group, Forest-Line
Zimmermann
Fooke
Breton
Torres
Jobs
Le Creneau
Huron

These are some impressive Machine Builders, unfortunately they all have Siemens controls. Except the Torres, which I can't believe Farrari is still making that fuck off POS control, and people are still attaching their Machinery to it.

R

Mstcnc · Sep 16, 2018

litlerob1 said:
These are some impressive Machine Builders, unfortunately they all have Siemens controls. Except the Torres, which I can't believe Farrari is still making that fuck off POS control, and people are still attaching their Machinery to it.

R

I agree, most of these manufacturers push siemens as first choice (thaks to siemens agressive marketing policy) but most have options for several other controls like heidenhain, num etc.
Basicly you can have any control system (at extra cost $$$) if it can interface linear motors.
Torres is offering even fanuc :O

Cycle1000 · Sep 16, 2018

These guys go big..
Starrag Group
AERO STRUCTURE TECHNOLOGY DAYS 218 - YouTube

DanielG · Sep 16, 2018

Mstcnc said:
I agree, most of these manufacturers push siemens as first choice (thaks to siemens agressive marketing policy) but most have options for several other controls like heidenhain, num etc.
Basicly you can have any control system (at extra cost $$$) if it can interface linear motors.
Torres is offering even fanuc :O

Be careful getting a control that is unusual for the machine tool builder. If they normally do Siemens and you insist on Fanuc, or vice versa, you can get into trouble. There are a lot of fiddly bits to getting a control integrated a new machine. We ran into this at a past job. We were a Fanuc shop and insisted on Fanuc for a new Butler horizontal mill. It worked, but the integration was never great.

bryan_machine · Sep 16, 2018

at a show G&L, now part of fives, told me they would build an HBM with fanuc or siemans or heidenhain, and the claim was price did not differ....

given the size/price of these machines thay are all probably semi custom, but DanielG's point still holds

also I do not think Fidia or some of the Italian vendors got listed (parpas?)

dstryr · Sep 16, 2018

litlerob1 said:
These are some impressive Machine Builders, unfortunately they all have Siemens controls. Except the Torres, which I can't believe Farrari is still making that fuck off POS control, and people are still attaching their Machinery to it.

R

Yeah.... Probably a reason for offering Siemens .... lol

mkd · Sep 16, 2018

lowCountryCamo said:
We now have 3 SNK's 5x horizontals that are not holding up mechanically. 20,000 rpm spindles are lasting about 14 months and we never go above 16,000. A known bad design. They have improved the new models but we are still shy of SNK.

Well with the service interval and the fact they are there running doing what is needed, I'd say get with SNK (or an aftermarket outfit)on a spindle design upgrade.

As far as a performance AL machine I'd suggest a gantry knucklehead with a head changer option. Blast out the material with the 3 axis config, then change to the 5axis for the fiddly finish work. Just a thought. Not sure if this is actually being done in industry but I've seen a Jobs gantry with said option. pretty slick.
Siemens TRORI is sweet. Post tool tip and forget about it.

Vancbiker · Sep 16, 2018

DanielG said:
Be careful getting a control that is unusual for the machine tool builder. If they normally do Siemens and you insist on Fanuc, or vice versa, you can get into trouble. There are a lot of fiddly bits to getting a control integrated a new machine. We ran into this at a past job. We were a Fanuc shop and insisted on Fanuc for a new Butler horizontal mill. It worked, but the integration was never great.

Absolutely true!!!

Working on a Butler Newall with a Fanuc 15 years ago is where I got the most experience with fixing ladder logic to correct odd machine behavior.

Machine was pretty complex with 38' of X axis, twin 9' rotary tables and B and C axes on the head. Took about 6 months to get installed and debugged to where I felt it was ready to release to production.

I have no experience with current Siemens controls so won't comment on them. Old Siemens sucked for support in the US so when I was doing field service we always drew straws when a service call came in for trouble with a Siemens control. Hopefully that's no longer the case.

Fanuc 30 series controls handle 5 axis simultaneous very well if you be sure to get the TCP option. There is a vector programming option that may be worth looking at too.

Suggestions for Large 5 axis mill to cut structural aerospace parts

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