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  1. #1
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    Default SwissMak Anyone Know What Happened

    Wasn't he suppose to start shipping October? End of October? I haven't seen any updated posts.. I know he brought a Dossan though

    SwissMak Kickstarter Launch - A Desktop CNC machine for Makers - YouTube

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    I'm working on production right now, getting about ten tons of 6061 bars and blocks in this coming week. Right now I'm on track to be shipping out finished machine kits late in October on pallets; these are going to every continent except Antarctica so shipping will take a few weeks and will most likely go into November for the latter machines.

    The reason we're behind schedule is that the DNM 5700 delivery and install took almost two months longer than the date on the purchase contract; the machine was supposed to get here in late July or the first few days of August.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m98custom1212 View Post
    Wasn't he suppose to start shipping October? End of October? I haven't seen any updated posts.. I know he brought a Dossan though

    SwissMak Kickstarter Launch - A Desktop CNC machine for Makers - YouTube
    That's GenericDefault's project.

    I have to still read that thread all the way through.


    I would say that it would take about 6 years to roll out something that is REALLY the "biz" on this IMO (with some earlier prototype releases along the way).

    Lot of SW and hardware aspects that have to jive and gel well on this one.


    I think the RAW concept is really good.

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    How embarrassing Generic default beat me to it lol. D'oh


    Hope things are going well,


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    I was hoping to do a New Machine Day thread two months ago, but it got stretched out so long that it would have to be a "New Machine Season" thread. I'll probably do it once I have a bunch of SwissMak mill-turn centers on the shop floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    I was hoping to do a New Machine Day thread two months ago, but it got stretched out so long that it would have to be a "New Machine Season" thread. I'll probably do it once I have a bunch of SwissMak mill-turn centers on the shop floor.
    I think that's the best way to go.

    Somebody bought a new machine (big woop) BUT what you end up doing with it in a reasonably short amount of time and the kinda parts you are making IS a big deal. So seeing worked examples from ZERO is good.


    Don't get me wrong having 200 pairs of vicarious eyes on a tricky rigging and install has useful leverage and hand holding capability too.


    Hey MTB/Vendor + rigger you don't "want" to f*ck this one up kind of thing lol. 'Cuz it's on the inetrwebs/internet... FOREVER...……. lol.
    Last edited by cameraman; 09-29-2018 at 08:27 PM.

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    Clamping the stick tools with button head cap screws?
    That's the best you could come up with?


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    I was hoping to do a New Machine Day thread two months ago, but it got stretched out so long that it would have to be a "New Machine Season" thread. I'll probably do it once I have a bunch of SwissMak mill-turn centers on the shop floor.
    In your kickstarter update, maybe I am missing it but, you state "By using the same cutter for both the top and bottom boxway surfaces without re-clamping the parts, we can eliminate this source of imperfection." In the picture below with the t-slot cutter, how are you cutting both sides of that bar without flipping it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    I'm working on production right now, getting about ten tons of 6061 bars and blocks in this coming week. Right now I'm on track to be shipping out finished machine kits late in October on pallets; these are going to every continent except Antarctica so shipping will take a few weeks and will most likely go into November for the latter machines.

    The reason we're behind schedule is that the DNM 5700 delivery and install took almost two months longer than the date on the purchase contract; the machine was supposed to get here in late July or the first few days of August.
    Stupid question here...

    Did you ever consider a 5 axis horizontal (trunnion based).

    I.e. the power of both spindles in ONE spindle and you have the sliding head work as a horizontal.

    Maybe with a beefier spindle you can do turning on it as well with a 4 tool more rigid tool post, so the horizontal bigger spindle is both for milling and turning (needs a crafty design ).


    Maybe "cray cary", but one day I hope you make something that's not for "Makers" but for small scale precision machining... like air bearing spindles and built on a chunky granite slab + scales and fiercely accurate mechatronics for around $50K to $100K + some cast iron components. ;-)



    For some inspiration (perhaps) ^^^ [There are other really high end accurate lathe manufacturers / builders that use a tilted granite slab Mikroturn(R) Base Line - Hembrug ]
    Last edited by cameraman; 09-30-2018 at 10:24 AM.

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    I don't mean to be blase, but if you are a machinist who has ever helped get anything into production you never expected this thing to ship on time. Something like 10% of projects are completed on time, and this is a very ambitious project.

    I remain very interested, but I lacked the dosh to put into this thing, and am concerned about it delivering what they say it does, at the price it does. I will be happy to be proven wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Clamping the stick tools with button head cap screws?
    That's the best you could come up with?


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

    That was a bit of an odd choice for sure... super interested in this machine for prototyping moderately complex small parts, but it looks like a lot of fairly fundamental details have been overlooked that would prevent me buying it (eg the tools not locating hard up against the correct surface in the turret, that's really weird). 6061 box ways as well... I work with hard anodised 6061 all day every day and in spite of the hardness of the anodising, the substrate is so soft that it's easy to damage just by reaching a local stress that exceeds the strength of the substrate that's 0.05mm below the super hard surface. I don't really see those lasting under any regular use, but the design intent is freakin cool and if they ever make a slightly more ferrous version I'd be very interested. Even make it twice the price and it'd still be a bargain if it actually lets you bang out moderate-complexity, moderate-tolerance prototypes more quickly than messing around with 8 different lathe/mill setups only to find out you messed something up with the design.

    What kind of controller does it run? Wasn't clear on kickstarter.. says you "need a computer". According to this post, I have one and it's even connected to the intertubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Clamping the stick tools with button head cap screws?
    Yeah, and reverse turning with a C insert, the setting angle becomes shallow. I shiver when I see such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Clamping the stick tools with button head cap screws?
    That's the best you could come up with?


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    "OxKo Industries, everything you need to tune your SwissMak"

    A division of "WorldWide Ox"....

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    The tool turret on the second prototype that you see in the Kickstarter video worked fine with cap screws holding the turning tools in place, I'm aware this would never hold up on a full sized lathe with a 30hp spindle but keep in mind the SwissMak plugs into wall outlets so it's not going to take incredibly heavy cuts with hundreds of foot-pounds of torque. Wall outlets put out no more than 3 horsepower.

    The turret on the production model is 10 inches (up from 8 inches in the video) and holds 16 tools instead of 8. The stick tools are now held in place with a tapered wedge lock just like on larger CNC lathe turrets. This locates and clamps against a larger surface area, shims allow fine adjustment.

    Here are a couple of videos of the large parts of it being made:

    Machining a Z base bar for a SwissMak - YouTube

    Milling the X boxways for a SwissMak - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    The tool turret on the second prototype that you see in the Kickstarter video worked fine with cap screws holding the turning tools in place, I'm aware this would never hold up on a full sized lathe with a 30hp spindle but keep in mind the SwissMak plugs into wall outlets so it's not going to take incredibly heavy cuts with hundreds of foot-pounds of torque. Wall outlets put out no more than 3 horsepower.

    The turret on the production model is 10 inches (up from 8 inches in the video) and holds 16 tools instead of 8. The stick tools are now held in place with a tapered wedge lock just like on larger CNC lathe turrets. This locates and clamps against a larger surface area, shims allow fine adjustment.

    Here are a couple of videos of the large parts of it being made:

    Machining a Z base bar for a SwissMak - YouTube

    Milling the X boxways for a SwissMak - YouTube
    You mentioned you'd be shipping units in late October with some slipping into November, how are you standing on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    The turret on the production model is 10 inches (up from 8 inches in the video) and holds 16 tools instead of 8. The stick tools are now held in place with a tapered wedge lock just like on larger CNC lathe turrets. This locates and clamps against a larger surface area, shims allow fine adjustment.
    I'm glad to hear you're making improvements. If you're able to successfully complete the release of this product I look forward to a following version made from steel, cast iron, and/or granite that can reliably hold a few tenths tolerance on small Ti and 17-4 parts for about double to quadruple the price. My company would buy one right now if it were available, especially if the milling spindle had an ATC. For bonus points let the turning spindle be configurable to Swiss mode.

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    mhajicek,

    All of those things are highly requested features. I will have a swiss support attachment available for sure, without this attachment the machine works like one of the larger, 'chucker' style swiss machines that can operate without the bushing. It will also have a bar pulling / feeding capability for more automated production.

    I've been considering making large molds for epoxy granite casting to make machine bases for these things. If I were to just substitute the current aluminum bar design for steel or continuously cast iron, it would weigh 3x more, and it would require a heavy metal structure to support it. I think having a single piece EG base and a full frame elevated enclosure on caster wheels would be ideal.

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    Can you post pictures of the latest version of the machine, especially with the Swiss support feature? Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    The tool turret on the second prototype that you see in the Kickstarter video worked fine with cap screws holding the turning tools in place, I'm aware this would never hold up on a full sized lathe with a 30hp spindle but keep in mind the SwissMak plugs into wall outlets so it's not going to take incredibly heavy cuts with hundreds of foot-pounds of torque. Wall outlets put out no more than 3 horsepower.

    The turret on the production model is 10 inches (up from 8 inches in the video) and holds 16 tools instead of 8. The stick tools are now held in place with a tapered wedge lock just like on larger CNC lathe turrets. This locates and clamps against a larger surface area, shims allow fine adjustment.

    Here are a couple of videos of the large parts of it being made:

    Machining a Z base bar for a SwissMak - YouTube

    Milling the X boxways for a SwissMak - YouTube
    Thanks for the updates, the revised tool clamps sound way better. In one of the videos it mentions live tools on the turret - is this correct or is it only on the B-axis head? If the latter, any plans for a toolchanger? It's a rare day that I could do any job with only one live tool - not a lot of point (to me) being able to do simultaneous 5 axis, or even 3+2, if I have to do it all with one tool. If the turret does allow for live tools though, that is pretty awesome, but then you need 2 spindle motors instead of just the one. However if there's only one live tool, things like bar pullers and automation add-ons are redundant, and I'd go so far as to say they're kind of pointless anyway on a machine with alu box ways - running those loaded will kill them pretty fast (even plastic will score hard ano'd alu over time), I don't see it being plausible to run any high volume of parts on that machine as it currently stands.

    Don't let me get in the way of what you're doing because maybe I don't properly understand your marketd, but to give you my personal requests in order of importance, these are the things that'd have me beating down your door trying to throw money at you if they were implemented:
    1. Ferrous construction of the box ways at a minimum (and ideally any other moving parts too) - or replacing them with linear rails or a proper motion system. Bump up the price, I don't care, a $7k machine with these capabilities would still be a good deal if it lasts and can output usable parts. Tool holders, turret etc could all be alu, they aren't seeing regular sliding motion and when they eventually wear out they look to be replaceable at a reasonable cost. I also think it's a mistake to prioritise light weight... it's literally the opposite of what every other MTB does. If you can afford any kind of cnc machine you can work out a sufficiently sturdy surface to sit it on.
    2. Toolchanger or ability to run multiple live tools. Either that or delete the turret and replace with a quick change tool post - there is no point automating half the system for tool changes and having the other half be manual. Either make it fully automated or not at all, otherwise you're adding cost at no additional utility.
    3. Some info on the controller would be handy. Sounds like it uses a PC to control it, but through what kind of software and what kind of interface?
    4. Maybe change the name, it's not a swiss lathe either by nationality or design type
    5. I'd suggest you forget automating it for volume production of parts (bar puller and stuff were mentioned), it isn't currently a good candidate for that. If you're going to add features, add ones that suit your market and use cases.

    Things I think are already awesome:
    1. The price.
    2. The design concept overall - I think this has a large market, partly with hobbyists but actually moreso for people in my position who want a cheap, capable machine that can make reasonably complex mill-turn prototypes and test parts in a minimum number of setups without pulling machines off production work to do it. I don't care whether it cuts fast or slow or whatever, the spindle RPMs you have there for example are very good - most of our parts are <10 minutes cutting time, but might take a day or two to set up. This gets pretty costly with prototyping time where we can easily spend 2 days just making one part on our current turning centre.
    3. The fact that you actually made this happen.

    --Steve

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    One thing that comes to mind is that for the small parts that this machine is suited for, there will be a need for high RPMs for small cutters. If the turret can be made to hold industry standard electric spindles such as people use in Swiss machines that would be great; most will need to be axial or cross tools (0º or 90º), and the B axis milling head can be used for the rare occurrences when it's actually needed. There are also some electric spindles that have an adjustable angle head; I saw some at IMTS.


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