Thread: SwissMak Anyone Know What Happened

What entire opperation?

I doubt that he is going to float a VMC back to whenst it came.

Pretty sure there's no employees to move.

All that could be is to ship whatever parts/supplies that are already in-house yonder.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Originally Posted by Generic Default

I get that the forum users here are skeptical of me, the way I have run the business so far, and the product itself. But I believe that having a team of millionaires and deca-millionaires backing this venture will lead to long term success. These are all smart people who have accumulated their wealth by working hard and making good investment decisions over their entire careers, so consider that they are getting into this because they may know something that you don't.

Well at the very least it's going to be an interesting road.

Anyone want to take a bet on SwissMak ever shipping a unit? Or perhaps on company solubility in 3 years?

Originally Posted by Pariel

Well at the very least it's going to be an interesting road.

Anyone want to take a bet on SwissMak ever shipping a unit? Or perhaps on company solubility in 3 years?

I think the Redskins will win their 4th Super Bowl before a Swiss Mak is shipped. His stories don't add up. I wonder what percentage of what he says is truthful? Like I said before, he probably started with good intentions but didn't want to own anything when it started going south, now he appears to be well on his way to becoming a professional con man.

A lot of the lies he tells can easily be proven to be lies. A good example is his claim he pays no more for rent near the port of Los Angeles or Long Beach (he has said both) than he would in the Inland Empire. All a person has to do is Google for industrial space rents to find out that is a false statement.

Originally Posted by Ox

What entire opperation?

I doubt that he is going to float a VMC back to whenst it came.

Pretty sure there's no employees to move.

All that could be is to ship whatever parts/supplies that are already in-house yonder.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Post #232 I believe. He says "his staff/team". AND that he has already been over there taking tours of shops and whatnot, probably on the kickstarter's dime but not my problem. Hopefully they will wise up. And all the investors he is talking about doesn't make sense. As someone else stated, the machine market is flooded with low end build it urself type routers and 'toy' machines, by the time he is able to compete (if ever), IMO, he will be over the budget of the low end machine and hobby guys, and not offer enough to compete with the Haas and Sharp of the machine tool world...

I know what he said.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

These are all smart people who have accumulated their wealth by working hard and making good investment decisions over their entire careers, so consider that they are getting into this because they may know something that you don't.

I think you meant to say "We (PM users) may know something they don't".

You say you have been over here (East Asia) but I doubt it just as I doubt most everything else you say. Kind of like blaming Ellison for the VMC being late when in fact it was delivered and installed 2 days after you ordered it. Yeah,,,, You really pissed them off with that lie.

I can remember your first post here asking for help in your design and manufacturing process and then shunned ALL of us because you didn't like our answers. Look at you now. More than a year late and not a pot to piss in, and you want to tell us you have investors that have done their homework on what they are buying into?

Whats this whole spill about needing a place that had a big enough AC unit to keep the shop at 69 degrees for metrology purposes? You don't have a clue about manufacturing. You couldn't even build the first two prototypes, Some other guy in Colorado did it for you. I've watch you vids of you machining the ways many times. The part is too long for your travel so you had to come in from Y then move in the X direction only to ramp of in Y at the end. Oh, And that T slot cutter sticking out 6" making a single roughing/finishing pass in a restrained/strained condition? yeah, quite sure that 69 degree shop didn't help with that fuck up. The heart of your machines has already been finished and I guarantee they are all bad. They twisted the second you opened the vises.

Had you held them properly and machined them with several flips to minimize warping the fact is they are aluminum. The second it goes outside a controlled environment they will potato chip. Lets say they make it to the backer after being crated and shipped half way around the world with constant changing temps and humidity. Do you think these hobbyist are going to have a $1000 Starrett 199 Master Machine level just laying around? What about the people that don't have a climate controlled garage? are you going to guarantee .001 then?

I already feel bad for the suckers you shafted on the first round of this POS and just hope maybe a few of your investors will find these post and maybe run away while they have a chance.

If you are really coming here to do business I will give you a piece of advice. Make sure you kissed your mom bye and have your affairs in order. The way you do business is dirty and non-transparent. So when you shaft a Chinese businessman over or publicly blame them as you have done businesses here, you may very well disappear. In Asia it's all about face and make someone lose that just remember "Life is cheap here".......

I think Generic Default missed his calling, he should be a politician. An obvious lying sack of crap and a proven failure who blames everyone but himself for his failures and talks down to all those who speak against him.

Originally Posted by Generic Default

...The electric utility (LADWP) has been billing us at 78 cents per kilowatt hour for the last few months.
….
I doubt anyone on this forum will disagree with me for saying that Taiwan is a much cheaper place to be, especially for this type of business.

78 /kwh... really? cough spit, harbor freight sells generators that are cheaper to run. Texas in worst summer doesn't even approach that.

Taiwan cost more than north America for this type of work. A machinist with papers is 12-15 hr here. figure 20/hr with cost, you have 1 or 2 machines, assembly workers @ 9-10/hr and you can have lines of people applying. You go to Mississippi and you get all the payroll taxes back. 235 Industrial Dr, Senatobia, MS, 38668 - Industrial Space For Lease | LoopNet.com It makes zero difference (within metro areas) if you are near a sea port for shipping containers, there are extremes for high volume - but you are in the air cargo /ltl numbers, not containers. And your bribes/kick backs are far cheaper here.
3 foundries within 200 miles doing low number runs on grey iron to exotics- and this is not a manufacturing center of the country.

Originally Posted by memphisjed

78 /kwh... really? cough spit, harbor freight sells generators that are cheaper to run. Texas in worst summer doesn't even approach that.

That is just more of his made up crap and exaggerations. Cali does have the highest rates in the lower 48 and electric rates have been discussed numerous times here, even if you add in all the charges, summer time rates on the highest tier in the most expensive place in Cali is around 40 cents per KWH.

Originally Posted by Dualkit

That is just more of his made up crap and exaggerations. Cali does have the highest rates in the lower 48 and electric rates have been discussed numerous times here, even if you add in all the charges, summer time rates on the highest tier in the most expensive place in Cali is around 40 cents per KWH.

Just went to the LADWP site and found the highest residential rates for heavy users at 18 cents per KWH. They aren't going to charge a business over 4 times that. Dude just can't stop lying.

Originally Posted by Dualkit

Just went to the LADWP site and found the highest residential rates for heavy users at 18 cents per KWH. They aren't going to charge a business over 4 times that. Dude just can't stop lying.

According to the LA county electrical the high for the year industrial has been 8.16 KWH while residential highs were 18.7 KWH (both only up .5%since this time last year).

Originally Posted by Dualkit

Just went to the LADWP site and found the highest residential rates for heavy users at 18 cents per KWH. They aren't going to charge a business over 4 times that. Dude just can't stop lying.

Originally Posted by g-coder05

According to the LA county electrical the high for the year industrial has been 8.16 KWH while residential highs were 18.7 KWH (both only up .5%since this time last year).

California is a trip when it comes to utility rates, if you can get them from a government source they aren't that bad. If you are unfortunate enough to fall under the wrath of SCE, PG&E, SDGE or the like you get hosed. When I moved from the city limits of Riverside Ca to a couple miles outside them my rates pretty much tripled as I went from a city run co-op to Southern California Edison.

Originally Posted by Dualkit

California is a trip when it comes to utility rates, if you can get them from a government source they aren't that bad. If you are unfortunate enough to fall under the wrath of SCE, PG&E, SDGE or the like you get hosed. When I moved from the city limits of Riverside Ca to a couple miles outside them my rates pretty much tripled as I went from a city run co-op to Southern California Edison.

Our current summer rate during peak hours, weekdays 4pm-9pm, is 50 cents per KWH. I don't remember if this is combined generation + delivery, or just generation. Whatever if it is, it's more than double our normal rate.

As a production shop, we have no choice but to take it up the rear most of the time. We can't shut down the shop for 5 hours a day.

Sometimes we have the luxury of waiting, and I'll run a G4 P18000 at the beginning of the master program to stall for 5 hrs.

Originally Posted by g-coder05

I think you meant to say "We (PM users) may know something they don't".

You say you have been over here (East Asia) but I doubt it just as I doubt most everything else you say. Kind of like blaming Ellison for the VMC being late when in fact it was delivered and installed 2 days after you ordered it. Yeah,,,, You really pissed them off with that lie.

I can remember your first post here asking for help in your design and manufacturing process and then shunned ALL of us because you didn't like our answers. Look at you now. More than a year late and not a pot to piss in, and you want to tell us you have investors that have done their homework on what they are buying into?

Whats this whole spill about needing a place that had a big enough AC unit to keep the shop at 69 degrees for metrology purposes? You don't have a clue about manufacturing. You couldn't even build the first two prototypes, Some other guy in Colorado did it for you. I've watch you vids of you machining the ways many times. The part is too long for your travel so you had to come in from Y then move in the X direction only to ramp of in Y at the end. Oh, And that T slot cutter sticking out 6" making a single roughing/finishing pass in a restrained/strained condition? yeah, quite sure that 69 degree shop didn't help with that fuck up. The heart of your machines has already been finished and I guarantee they are all bad. They twisted the second you opened the vises.

Had you held them properly and machined them with several flips to minimize warping the fact is they are aluminum. The second it goes outside a controlled environment they will potato chip. Lets say they make it to the backer after being crated and shipped half way around the world with constant changing temps and humidity. Do you think these hobbyist are going to have a $1000 Starrett 199 Master Machine level just laying around? What about the people that don't have a climate controlled garage? are you going to guarantee .001 then?

I already feel bad for the suckers you shafted on the first round of this POS and just hope maybe a few of your investors will find these post and maybe run away while they have a chance.

If you are really coming here to do business I will give you a piece of advice. Make sure you kissed your mom bye and have your affairs in order. The way you do business is dirty and non-transparent. So when you shaft a Chinese businessman over or publicly blame them as you have done businesses here, you may very well disappear. In Asia it's all about face and make someone lose that just remember "Life is cheap here".......

I have to agree with almost everything you said.

But technically I didn't "build" the first prototypes.

I merely programmed and machined components for them. But yes. I have an industrial manufacturing background.

Originally Posted by metalmadness

I have to agree with almost everything you said.

But technically I didn't "build" the first prototypes.

I merely programmed and machined components for them. But yes. I have an industrial manufacturing background.

There is another thing I was thinking, You had already programmed and machined the components once. Did he not consult with you on how you machined them, or even ask for the programs?

Originally Posted by g-coder05

There is another thing I was thinking, You had already programmed and machined the components once. Did he not consult with you on how you machined them, or even ask for the programs?

I am pretty sure with his previously stated 100's of hours of machining experience he would have had no use for someone else's program. (Please detect sarcasm) The guy projected as a complete know it all, even when he knew nothing, just a big bag of hot air.

The only reason I've posted anything in this thread is that I detected a dangerous level of over-confidence mixed with a ridiculous lack of transparency.

When he *has* tried to be transparent, it reads like a crafted story and doesn't sniff out.

I'm wondering what the reality and sequence of events was that underpins his most recent explanation.

After reading some other replies, I also began to wonder if he's got pallets of material that's machined, but way out of tolerance?

I mean, if you follow the thread here and on KS, it's clear he had all the material to machine the parts long ago and he claims to have machined nearly all of the assemblies. But then for some reason he says he *didn't* have the material and tariffs suddenly hit him.

I'm wondering if he blew through all the material without getting the process sorted out and if he was to build machines, they would all be out of tolerance and not be able to make a true part?

So now he needs more material to remake all the parts?

I had a business acquaintance that told all sorts of off-the-cuff stories that were untrue, to string people along just a little bit more. Because real money was involved, people were patient, until they weren't.

I wonder if this guy had an idea, but was too arrogant to accept advice from others and this resulted in the KS backers paying for his education in machining and business?

The "garage built" products are only successfully made by people who have already figured out what they are doing and have invested their own time and money into educating themselves. The rest seek advice from business professionals and farm work out to those who've already made the capital investment.

He should have consulted local business pros (mentor type clubs exist), consulted with a seasoned engineer, consulted with a machine shop (you get manufacturing engineering for free at this step), and only proceeded with the KS once he had that nailed down.

I think he's grasping at straws trying to hold on to what he has, rather than acknowledging a failure and coming clean.

The machines that his KS backers receive (if they do) won't be made of the material he cut in his shop, that much I'm certain of.

This has risen to the level of "get someone local to drop by and get real pictures of what the heck is actually going on".

Originally Posted by g-coder05

There is another thing I was thinking, You had already programmed and machined the components once. Did he not consult with you on how you machined them, or even ask for the programs?

The short answer is no

Originally Posted by metalmadness

The short answer is no

What is Perry like ?

Is he very charming, does he devise the ability for other people to do things for him or have people give him things ?

Before this thread gets any darker... I can't help feel there is a missing dimension to this ?

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@metalmadness At least I can definitely appreciate your contribution to the project (in a good way) too often people take the work of machinist and prototype machinists for granted as to how they really devised a plethora of solutions to solve actual problems to make real things happen or just simply claim the work of others.

To me this seems like an odd poker game where the stakes keep getting higher and higher because of a chain of failure.

Your work (@metalmadness) helped execute Perry's ideas, then that attracted crowd funding, then difficulties arise, 'Deca-millionaires" (rolling eyes) appear on the scene and suddenly the Taiwanese are involved.

From a business perspective (I know from first hand experience) that there are many "Dick moves" available to the consortium of funders and development partners that may indeed result in Perry being fired from his own company principally because he does not have a degree in Engineering - as ironically he dropped out of college to pursue SwissMak, and also that his usefulness to the project may have expired once they have essentially claimed his core ideas and work.

Still seems like there is 5 years of R&D missing from this project.

The original crowd founders should be given full refunds and Perry and his new Taiwanese "Homies" should spend extra time doing product development and then launch , that way the original crowd funding "Peeps" could be given special consideration / discount for a more fully realized and functional product.

If a driving factor is tariffs, wouldn't you want to stay here and import as few parts as you can? So only some of the final value is subject to tariffs? By going off shore 100% of the value will be subject to tariffs on it's way in to the country.

Unless most of the buyers are OCONUS, I don't see how Taiwan is better tariff wise. GD, care to explain the logic?