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  1. #261
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    I thought people would have a slightly more inquisitive response to the recent Taiwan update, but it looks like most of the people here refuse to believe any of it.

    Starting with the DNM 5700 delivery last year. I didn't mention the distributor by name because I thought they were dealing with unusually high order volumes and everyone I met and talked to in person at their office was friendly and professional. I signed the order and wrote the check at the end of July last year, and the estimated delivery date was August 1st for the machine. It was dropped off on August 14th. Apparently someone forgot to put in the paperwork for the chip conveyor and probe and tools and calibration master that was included on the order, and they couldn't schedule the installation until that stuff was in place. So it was mid October by the time that the techs finally finished setting up everything and I signed off on it. I was not expecting to be making chips on the day of "estimated delivery" but it was about 10 weeks before the ordeal was done. The DNM is an awesome machine in terms of mechanics, it's built like a cast iron pyramid and it seems very rigid and accurate overall. I frequently probe the table and vises to check for drift and thermal stability, and it seems great.

    The electric rates used to be closer to what OrangeVise is paying, most of my bills have averaged out to about $0.47 per kWh until the last few months. BTW I'm calculating these by dividing the dollars I owe by the kWh used as shown on the bill. The way they present it on the bill shows the electric rate as being normal, but it is multiplied by a ton of line items and all of those products are summed, then taxed several times, which is a tradition in California.

    Go look at the previous Kickstarter updates if you doubt I have actually made anything, I posted pictures of many of the parts. For the flat parts you mentioned, I checked them several ways.

    1) Basic caliper check
    2) In-machine probing, both of parts that were just machined (still in vises) and parts that were unclamped and repositioned with no clamping force.
    3) Micrometer check on the critical boxway opposing surfaces. This is the thickness along the length of the parts that must be kept super tight. The facemill surfaces the top, the T slot cutter surfaces the bottom. There are 3 operations for that Z boxway part, the first 2 remove most metal and the final one is done on a jig that is faced in-situ to be perfectly flat after it's clamped in the vises. I was able to hold a tenth for all of the X and Z boxway surfaces.
    4) 0.01mm feeler gauge and basic light-through-a-gap test, whatever the formal name of that is. All of the critical flat parts have a suction force when their faces are in contact. There is no rattle or wiggle from something like a diagonal warp, no rocking from a warp along the length or width of these flat bars.
    Right now all of the parts are on racks or pallets, packed in a combination of thick poly bags, cheap towels, foam, bubble bags, and cardboard boxes. Making the components has been the only part of this project that has been easier than I expected.

    LOTT,

    The tariffs are a big part of the decision to move, but not the only reason. All of the 6061 we bought here was SAPA, Kaiser, and Service Center, it's printed on the bars. There were no direct tariffs on that metal, but the price still went up a lot and that alone cost us hundreds per machine. We did have to pay direct duties on the imported components (like the stepper motors for example) which had the 25% added to the normal 5%. Of the Kickstarter backers, roughly half are in the USA. Of the people who have been asking to order since the Kickstarter ended, more than half are outside the US.

    Not trying to ruin my social credit score here (joking btw) but Taiwan is not China and the Trump tariffs do not apply to imports from Taiwan. We can't get steppers and servos and power supplies made in the US but we can get them in Taiwan. Factory space is roughly 1/5th the price as it is here. When it comes down to it, it is still much less expensive to make the machines in Taiwan and ship them back to the USA, even with duties and freight, than it is to do it all here and ship them within the US. We did some pretty thorough financial analysis with the investor group for multiple scenarios, including staying in the US, and the uncertainty of the tariffs and trade war and material availability and cost were all things that were discussed.

    I'll post some photos of the inventory before it's about to go into the shipping container, and after it gets unloaded a month later at the new factory, and then more pictures when the new factory is set up and making machines. There will be enough floor space to lay out many SwissMaks at the same time for assembly and testing.

  2. #262
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    Your updates are very much welcomed, and we all definately would like to see those photos!!!

  3. #263
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    Stop the story telling GD, anyone with an I.Q. at room temperature or above can see you are nothing but a chronic liar. You have a crap made up excuse for everything. A good example is you claim that an increase in the price of aluminum shut you down. I do believe you had previously claimed to have purchased all the material at once to get the best pricing. The biggest problem is even if you were buying the material as you went along you claimed the increase costs forced you to halt production. So you claim to not be able to afford an extra $1 a pound for aluminum yet you are still making lease payments on a machine and shop rent. The problem is all your lies are in print on the internet, you have become nothing but a con man.

    I think Perry above maybe on to something, you made a bunch of scrap and realize manufacturing the machines is way over your head.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    i really don't understand why this thread has so much traction.

    Why does anyone give a shit about this piece of junk?
    ↑↑↑↑↑
    10x.................................

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  6. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    ↑↑↑↑↑
    10x.................................
    I can think of a few reasons.

    1) OP was bringing a 5 axis (6-7?) mill turn center on the market for 5k or something which gets people thinking.
    2) OP came here asking questions I believe
    3) OP ignored everyone's advice
    4) OP is now backtracking and making up some crazy excuses...

    5) everyone enjoys a little time

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  8. #266
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    My interest is he reminds me a lot like a guy I set-up to distribute my products when I was playing Dualkit as I don't like playing salesman or office boy. I don't want to see anyone else get taken for a ride by the guy. I hope anyone thinking of investing a dime in this guy will find this thread. It may not have been his intentions in the beginning, but he has evolved into a smooth talking con man.


    I really love this comment:


    "Making the components has been the only part of this project that has been easier than I expected."


    If that doesn't get people riled up in here I don't know what will. He basically is saying making tight tolerance parts on a machining center is easy and this clown just started learning the trade.

  9. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    ↑↑↑↑↑
    10x.................................
    It's because he came to PM with questions then shunned us as idiots. Now, by doing so he's created quite a following, Not that we wanted him to fail, but just to see what his next excuse will be. Personally, I don't want to see anyone fail including my competitors.

    1) Basic caliper check
    2) In-machine probing, both of parts that were just machined (still in vises) and parts that were unclamped and repositioned with no clamping force.
    3) Micrometer check on the critical boxway opposing surfaces. This is the thickness along the length of the parts that must be kept super tight. The facemill surfaces the top, the T slot cutter surfaces the bottom. There are 3 operations for that Z boxway part, the first 2 remove most metal and the final one is done on a jig that is faced in-situ to be perfectly flat after it's clamped in the vises. I was able to hold a tenth for all of the X and Z boxway surfaces.
    4) 0.01mm feeler gauge and basic light-through-a-gap test, whatever the formal name of that is. All of the critical flat parts have a suction force when their faces are in contact. There is no rattle or wiggle from something like a diagonal warp, no rocking from a warp along the length or width of these flat bars.
    Right now all of the parts are on racks or pallets, packed in a combination of thick poly bags, cheap towels, foam, bubble bags, and cardboard boxes. Making the components has been the only part of this project that has been easier than I expected.
    "In machine probing" Ok, You and your people can't even write an efficient program to make the parts to begin with but you claim to know how to write the macros to probe the part as a CMM? Sorry, but not buying that either. It is absolutely impossible to machine an extruded raw piece of aluminum that long restrained and hold .001. flatness and parallelism.

    Oh, This BS of you holding a .0001 on aluminum over 40"? Yeah, I see that happening. Please, with your 200 hours of machining experience come to my shop and show us how it's done.

    You are moving your op to Taiwan? I'm in Taichung at least every two weeks and everyone there knows everyone. I'm looking forward to meeting you.....

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  11. #268
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    I was thinking about this the other night. What are the chances that the new "Investors" isn't actually someone from Taiwan with the correct resources, that bought the whole operation, including the debt, lock, stock & barrel...?

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  13. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post

    You are moving your op to Taiwan? I'm in Taichung at least every two weeks and everyone there knows everyone. I'm looking forward to meeting you.....
    LMAO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I was thinking about this the other night. What are the chances that the new "Investors" isn't actually someone from Taiwan with the correct resources, that bought the whole operation, including the debt, lock, stock & barrel...?
    I suspected the same thing (see my post #222), with one major exception: I doubt the investor bought the debt. They're in Taiwan, probably just told Generic Default to tell his US creditors to go F themselves.

    In fact, I doubt the investor bought anything. Maybe footing the bill to get the goods shipped over, but every other payment is probably in the form of an IOU at this time, a promise of future profits.

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  17. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    My interest is he reminds me a lot like a guy I set-up to distribute my products when I was playing Dualkit as I don't like playing salesman or office boy. I don't want to see anyone else get taken for a ride by the guy. I hope anyone thinking of investing a dime in this guy will find this thread. It may not have been his intentions in the beginning, but he has evolved into a smooth talking con man.


    I really love this comment:


    "Making the components has been the only part of this project that has been easier than I expected."


    If that doesn't get people riled up in here I don't know what will. He basically is saying making tight tolerance parts on a machining center is easy and this clown just started learning the trade.
    It sounds like he has yet to assemble a complete machine. So to say that making them is easy without fitting them together is premature at best.

    I guess that fits the theme of this whole thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    <snip for clarity, all good >

    You are moving your op to Taiwan? I'm in Taichung at least every two weeks and everyone there knows everyone. I'm looking forward to meeting you.....
    I'm still trying to learn from the master ~ (the right honorable GenericDefualt OBE), how I can f*ck-up spectacularly (in just the right way) and get a FREE 20,000 SF manufactory in Taiwan too !

    Maybe we can all meet up for a beer.

    "Silly man trying to make stufffff in the USA , tut, tut..".

  19. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I'm still trying to learn from the master ~ (the right honorable GenericDefualt OBE), how I can f*ck-up spectacularly (in just the right way) and get a FREE 20,000 SF manufactory in Taiwan too !

    Maybe we can all meet up for a beer.

    "Silly man trying to make stufffff in the USA , tut, tut..".
    Maybe he is one of those guys who can sell ice to an Eskimo.

  20. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Maybe he is one of those guys who can sell ice to an Eskimo.
    Maybe he should work for DMG MORI

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  22. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    We can't get steppers and servos and power supplies made in the US but we can get them in Taiwan.
    What about Teknic Clearpath servos?

    Brushless DC (BLDC) & AC servo motors, servo drives and controls

    Assembled in the US, not sure where the components come from (maybe not hard to guess)

  23. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post

    I'll post some photos of the inventory before it's about to go into the shipping container, and after it gets unloaded a month later at the new factory, and then more pictures when the new factory is set up and making machines. There will be enough floor space to lay out many SwissMaks at the same time for assembly and testing.
    If your at the shop you could post pictures RIGHT NOW, or if not at the shop, post a few pictures you've been sending to your investors. Not that hard to do.

    If your incapable of taking pictures I could drive down to Long Beach tomorrow morning if you want and show you how to use a camera.

  24. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    I really love this comment:


    "Making the components has been the only part of this project that has been easier than I expected."


    If that doesn't get people riled up in here I don't know what will. He basically is saying making tight tolerance parts on a machining center is easy and this clown just started learning the trade.
    What I find interesting is that he doesn't appear to have proper metrology to inspect these parts. At the minimum he would need a granite table large enough to check the bow, twist, and dimensional tolerances of the long parts. It sounds like he sat them on the table and did the "feeler gauge" test.

    In my world the feeler gauge test is a litmus test for "yep, needs machining" or "nope, good enough". But when you are prototyping a machine tool, you need a granite flat, a stand, a very accurate indicator, and a good set of gage blocks. You probably also need some granite angles for checking from 2 different directions.

    There are plenty of people way better than me on this forum that have the experience of indicating machines (Richard King) that could probably come up with an inspection plan for each part without giving it a whole lot of thought.

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  26. #278
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    I wonder what the economics are of packing up US made Aluminum machined parts, shipping them to Taiwan for finishing, then shipping them back to the US?

    Those machines will have more sea miles on them than many shipping containers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Harrington View Post
    It sounds like he sat them on the table and did the "feeler gauge" test.
    I admit I am mostly a lathe guy, but I did own a beater 3 axis machining center making my own products and job shopping for a half dozen years till it became a money pit and I scrapped it and have yet to replace it. I have used a manual mill for second op work and repair work for decades.

    That being said the guy claims to check parts with a .01mm feeler gauge. How in the world could you have a feeler gauge with a .01mm finger on it? That would be 1/7th as thick as a piece of paper and thinner than the cheapest aluminum foil. Please educate me. Maybe feeler gauge means something different then back in the day when I used them to set ignition points and valve lash when wrenching on cars.

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  29. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    I admit I am mostly a lathe guy, but I did own a beater 3 axis machining center making my own products and job shopping for a half dozen years till it became a money pit and I scrapped it and have yet to replace it. I have used a manual mill for second op work and repair work for decades.

    That being said the guy claims to check parts with a .01mm feeler gauge. How in the world could you have a feeler gauge with a .01mm finger on it? That would be 1/7th as thick as a piece of paper and thinner than the cheapest aluminum foil. Please educate me. Maybe feeler gauge means something different then back in the day when I used them to set ignition points and valve lash when wrenching on cars.
    Hmm, the 0.01mm snuck past me. That's 4 tenths!

    The thinnest feeler stock I'm aware of is 0.001"

    Just handling a 40" piece of Al would probably move it more than 0.01mm over 40".

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