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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    ....People should not be expected to know Gcode to program a CNC machine. The software should do all the work for you.
    How hard can creating a mill/turn control, and intuitive CAM system, possibly be? /s

    Thanks for the good laugh.
    Last edited by coyoinu; 05-22-2020 at 12:06 PM. Reason: /s

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by coyoinu View Post
    How hard can creating a mill/turn control, and intuitive CAM system, possibly be?
    .
    Have you ever run a 5-6-7-8 axis machine that makes endmills, drills, reamers and such?
    Sure the underlying software not simple by any stretch but nobody looks at the G-code and you do not modify it.
    Do you go in and tweak the machine code running your computer right now?
    G-code is the basic instruction set to a machine tool similar to hex on your cpu.
    Yes it is a daunting task but not undoable.
    Those who doubt that you can do 8 axis real time on a $200-$500 dollar control board I also question experience.

    I think the OP jumped in way over his head at the start and is getting a whole lot of lessons.
    On one hand you can say "irrational exuberance" or not enough chips in the shoes. On the other the hard road of learning.
    I do not see the OP as a rip-off artist. I see dreams and pain.
    None of this is as easy as it looks from the outside.

    "A little learning is a dangerous thing. Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring
    There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again,."
    Bob

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  4. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    I gotta point out that ALL entrepreneurs are by nature "optimistic" otherwise they would never start companies...
    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I do not see the OP as a rip-off artist. I see dreams and pain.
    I have been following this thread from the start and it's been crazy to see all the back and forth. I do agree that most things can be explained away by over-committing and underestimation, but the thing I really don't understand is why GD simply doesn't post photos of something... anything!

    Generic default: That umbrella style ATC design you wrote about can't have any patentable elements, they have been done to death on every machine imaginable. Patents shouldn't be the priority right now anyway, customers and product should be. Post some screenshots. Post photos of anything, it doesn't have to be finished parts just post stuff that's uniquely identifiable as part of your work.

    I understand exactly what it's like to get in over your head with a big idea. This thread will end up being a lot more civil if you simply *show* the folks here what's going on...

    If you intend to keep using the SwissMak name for your machines then you need to think about what long term damage this thread is going to do to that name unless you take action to correct it post-haste. Anyone searching the web for your work in the future will come across this thread otherwise and it will do a lot to damage their confidence in your product and customer service.

    If there was a thread like this about my product I would be moving heaven and earth to get people on my side and set the story straight. If you're going to make it in the long term then you need to do the same.

    EDIT: I just checked and this thread is the 3rd result on google for 'swissmak'... Honestly this kind of negative publicity is kind of a death sentence for for a product that needs such a high level of customer trust. Particularly on a forum that is full of experts in exactly the kind of capability that you're trying to sell.

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  6. #544
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    All you capable of design and build/design the soft and hard in this size and capability please raise your hands.
    Not that you think that you can but that you know you can.
    Obviously someone like Motion can do this but I think he knows the price tag so very, very low.
    Why do people expect miracles and then be pissed of when the real world hits.
    I do see it as a market.
    Bob

  7. #545
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    All Y'all's that want pics:

    Of what?

    I have heard about a toolchanger.
    Sheetmetal

    Gen 1

    whatever else....


    If he can provide pics of ANY of that (from what I have read) then the kid is lying.
    If he cannot - then he is not.


    A) He said that Gen 1 aint even there yet.
    Maybe a boat sat at anchor for the last 2 months doo to Wuhan Flu?
    BTSOOM, but he says it aint there, so he kan't take pics.

    B) He showed a pic of a wood modeled frame for Gen 2
    He said that they couldn't git iron models as quick right now.
    You really think that he has something more than the wood frame to be seen?

    Good grief ...


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  9. #546
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    G-code survives because it's a kind of half standard - all of the pain of "compatibility" without some of the benefits. When somebody says their machine runs g-code, what they are really saying is "Your staff will grok this quickly. Any little tweaks you do on other machines, you can do on this machine. There will be no weird gaps that drive you to distraction. The front processes you are used to, whether that's CAM software that might cost as much as the machine, or special hand coding techniques, will work. Your staff will have a good idea how to debug, and adjust code."

    G-code is just a kind of miserable assembler level language which is a standard enough language for most machine tool controls. It is not magic.

    A leading waterjet maker sells wonderful machines, but in their heart, they don't speak g-code. Or any other language at that level. You have to interact with the their controller, their UI, do it their way. You want offset right instead of offset left? Too bad. Mind you, they work *totally fine* and make good parts. But....

    The CNC tool grinders are kind of a famous case - they're somewhat specialized, the people building the high end ones seem to know their game very well indeed, and so they can make an interface that works for that task.

    OP saying swissmak will have some other kind of interface that makes it easier for customers to use the machine does not strike me as unrealistic or even a poor idea - it is however a hard task. It amounts to language design (there's a whole large part of computer science devoted to this, it's a deeper rathole than you can imagine.) There will be many little items to trip over (the user HAS to be able to create complicated part instructions on a PC, not standing at the machine, there HAS to be some notion of single-step and similar debug methods, and so on and so forth.) Merely writing the spec for this is a large task, implementing it more so.

    The cost of CPUs and the like (as opposed to realtime and e-stop hardware) is not an interesting part of the problem.


    OP clearly needs to get their story straight and clean, then and only then, they might be able to offer a product that somebody will want.

  10. #547
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    So he is also going to develop ground breaking software that out performs any cam system on the market? But cannot figure out how to reset a password? Lol, we definitely need more snake oil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    I'm a bit hesitant to put screenshots on here before we actually have the castings done and delivered, mostly because the ATC configuration has some patent-able aspects and I don't want to publicly disclose that quite yet. I was planning on finishing the physical prototype and taking photos of it with people in the frame for size reference and to show the ergonomics and accessibility of the new enclosure. I promise I'll show you photos of the real thing in the near future, but I don't want to do it today. BTW there are several ATC designs we're evaluating, one of them is a modified canted umbrella type, one is integrated with the enclosure itself, and one looks vaguely like a cartoon beehive with an ungodly number of Bt30 holders stuffed in it. I really wanna show them because they're cool, but I can't do it quite yet.
    WOW! You are quite something. Custom cam'ish / conversational software (which apparently anyone can use with no machining experience) , $200 board to simultaneously control 9 axis, and now you are inventing a new ATC system???? x1000

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  13. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Have you ever run a 5-6-7-8 axis machine that makes endmills, drills, reamers and such?
    Sure the underlying software not simple by any stretch but nobody looks at the G-code and you do not modify it.
    Do you go in and tweak the machine code running your computer right now?
    G-code is the basic instruction set to a machine tool similar to hex on your cpu.
    Yes it is a daunting task but not undoable.
    Those who doubt that you can do 8 axis real time on a $200-$500 dollar control board I also question experience.

    I think the OP jumped in way over his head at the start and is getting a whole lot of lessons.
    On one hand you can say "irrational exuberance" or not enough chips in the shoes. On the other the hard road of learning.
    I do not see the OP as a rip-off artist. I see dreams and pain.
    None of this is as easy as it looks from the outside.

    "A little learning is a dangerous thing. Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring
    There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again,."
    Bob
    I don't understand you at all. You continue to support this guy, even though he has shown next to zero work being done. And getting, what 100k-200k +(?) from investors and not delivering anything in 1-2 years is not a rip off? You have a strange way of thinking.

    And for the record I was involved in a pretty big project for something new to the market. It eventually failed and went down the tubes. Sometimes you just have to know when to say I give up, or I need help. Not GD though, one excuse after another.

    I think (as some others have seemed to think), this thread could be turned into something good if he would just man up and say "I fucked up, I'm in over my head and things are spiraling out of control, but I am still trying."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't understand you at all. You continue to support this guy, even though he has shown next to zero work being done. And getting, what 100k-200k +(?) from investors and not delivering anything in 1-2 years is not a rip off? You have a strange way of thinking.

    And for the record I was involved in a pretty big project for something new to the market. It eventually failed and went down the tubes. Sometimes you just have to know when to say I give up, or I need help. Not GD though, one excuse after another.

    I think (as some others have seemed to think), this thread could be turned into something good if he would just man up and say "I fucked up, I'm in over my head and things are spiraling out of control, but I am still trying."
    If he did that the entertainment value would drop off the e-cliff.

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  17. #551
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    Private msgs don't work on this stupid website filled with old grumpy assholes. Why even have a way to message people when they clearly never get through.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    CarbideBob, I get your point completely. I know some guys get in WAY over their head on a new project. I've been there myself.
    However, I believe GD has ulterior motives because of the fact he refuses to post even distant, blurry shots of his progress.
    Even parts on the floor in a huge mess would help..... He also is posting some VERY lame excuses like the keyboard thing.
    G-coder came along and completely proved him wrong there. All these things add up and they don't stack the cards in his favor.

    By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather figs of thorn trees..........

  20. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Those who doubt that you can do 8 axis real time on a $200-$500 dollar control board I also question experience

    Bob

    hooking up wires to a 8 axis control doesn't mean much when the software running it is bullshit.

  21. #554
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    Let those without sin cast the first stone.
    All involved, tell us of your success in building such equipment.
    How far did $100K go in your startup? A month maybe two? Seems like a lot of money if you have never done it.
    Mistakes made for sure by GD but I'm thinking he is human.
    Bob

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  23. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Let those without sin cast the first stone.
    All involved, tell us of your success in building such equipment.
    How far did $100K go in your startup?
    Bob
    That's kinda beside the point because I didn't use other people's money.

    The point is, we're not blaming him for having problems.
    It's the lack of transparency and/or evidence of effort.
    If you use money from Kickstarter you have an obligation to keep your funders in the loop and eventually give them a return for their investment.

    So here's an offer:

    GD, if you have ANY problems with your project, pick our brains.
    I'm not saying I'll be of any help but I know there are some people
    here that really know their stuff, (i.e. motion guru). Simply posting some pictures
    and asking for help will do wonders to your reputation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Let those without sin cast the first stone.
    All involved, tell us of your success in building such equipment.
    How far did $100K go in your startup? A month maybe two? Seems like a lot of money if you have never done it.
    Bob
    Bob, I am not sure why you aren't seeing the *big picture* here for some reason.

    It's not really about if he can or can't (that is how I see it anyhow) deliver, it's one excuse after another.

    Keyboard broke? Forgot password, but not really because it was a broken keyboard? Had to buy a new phone because it didn't work in Taiwan? (BTW, I traveled back and forth to Bandung Indonesia and my phone worked fine). Aluminum prices went up so much he couldn't afford all the material? Too expensive to make in the US, so we moved the shop to Taiwan? Shipping was held up because of cornavirus? (Ok, that one might be somewhat truthful but I thought he shipped way before the world went on lockdown). Now he is working on SwissMak rev 2?

    C'mon

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    Let those without sin cast the first stone.
    All involved, tell us of your success in building such equipment.
    How far did $100K go in your startup? A month maybe two? Seems like a lot of money if you have never done it.
    Mistakes made for sure by GD but I'm thinking he is human.
    Bob
    I get your point but as ChipSplitter said "He used someone else's money. And he has not once owned up to any fault of his own. He has even gone as far as to blame the president of the United States for his failure, And how many times does he have to be caught lying?

    And Im to a point now where I don't think he is even in Taiwan. I work with four huge job and production shops in Taichung and none of them can seem to find out anything on this guy (And there is one in particular that really wants to find him)! A foreigner teaming up with a Taiwan manufacturer.... this guy would stick out like a sore thumb since everyone would be beating his door down trying to get sub work. Taichung is a big down but the (What's new) gossip is worse than a Georgia hair salon.

    I Stay in TW a lot and just by his comments he seems to no nothing about TW. The whole keyboard thing just floored me. Anyone whos been to TW knows the nobody uses a bilingual keyboard much less a trilingual!

    And people are right, He doesn't have to answer to any of us. But yet he still pops in here and boast what he is doing but cant provide pictures? My interest in this runs a bit deeper since some of his backers that I discussed this with have turned out to be rather good customers and some are now close acquaintances. Most of the backers I talk to just want their money back as was promised on the Kickstarter page. But,,,there seems to be a few that are extremely pissed. You just don't ignore someone who gave you $6K investment money.

    screen-shot-2020-05-23-12.54.09-pm.jpg

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  27. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    And Im to a point now where I don't think he is even in Taiwan.
    Interesting theory. I'm surprised nobody has asked about there whereabout of that shiny new Doosan VMC. Could be he's made up this story to hide from the backers who might sue him. I can understand wanted to take it easy on the guy, but when you burn 200k of other people's money, you're not a kid anymore. It's a risk of KS, you might lose your investment. I can see backers being pissed, but I doubt they would win anything considering he did get the operation running and made some parts.

    I have my doubts about the new investors. Who's going to dump another half mill on this operation and let the guy continue to handle PR? I have my theory.

    My prediction is the backer will bet boxes of machined parts, no electronics and they can finish the build themselves. So, they can each dump another 5k to maybe get it running. I hope I'm wrong. I'd like to see the KS machine run. I and others saw some considerable design flaws, but would be interesting to see how it runs. Same with the new version, would be interesting to see. I look forward to an update of "1st machine has shipped", but I'm guessing that years not months out.

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  29. #559
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    I'm a bootstrapper, no personal experience with venture capital, but I have seen a couple episodes of Shark Tank. How did GD's pitch sound?

    GD: "I have a great new machine idea that will let anyone build anything!"
    VC: "What are your margins?"
    GD: "We sell it for $9,999.00, and it only costs $57,000 to build!"
    VC: "How many have you sold?"
    GD: "20! And they prepaid! But we couldn't figure out how to build them, so you should give me more money to complete the machines I already was paid for once..."

    If GD did get backers, he is way more convincing in person than on forums. Like has been said before, ditch manufacturing and go into politics.

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  31. #560
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    It's been 3 days since I msged him again and no reply.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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