SwissMak Anyone Know What Happened - Page 5
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 200
  1. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Akron, OH
    Posts
    1,795
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    271
    Likes (Received)
    1337

    Default

    DFM is Design for Manufacture in my world. Between the proof of concept and production there's a lot of work in making sure your part is producable, your tolerance stack up stays within expectations, etc. One a one-off you can shim and sand and beat and ream to fit. On 36 units that gets old fast.

  2. Likes cameraman liked this post
  3. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New Jersey
    Posts
    137
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    56
    Likes (Received)
    72

    Default

    Design[ed] For Manufacturing.

  4. #83
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Klamath Falls, Oregon
    Posts
    3,605
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    404
    Likes (Received)
    987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    DFM is the universal abreviation for Diesel Fuel Marine. Can you spell out what you're abbreviating so we can understand?
    Design For Manufacture

  5. #84
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    West Unity, Ohio
    Posts
    24,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4975
    Likes (Received)
    7603

    Default

    So .. then ... this machine isn't damn fine?


    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  6. Likes barbter liked this post
  7. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    289
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    41
    Likes (Received)
    111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    No communism/Stalinism here!

    If these tariffs had been enacted by congress, or if they had some type of scheduled roll-out I would have different feelings about them, and I would be able to make business decisions without so much uncertainty. The uncertainty comes from the sudden announcements and instant implementation of the trade war decisions without those decisions going through congress first. These are not normal times, American businesses have not had to deal with instantaneous twitter tariffs until now.
    Hang on a minute.

    According to your Kickstarter Campaign:

    The SwissMak would weigh over 1200 pounds (550 kilograms) if it were made from cast iron rather than aluminum.
    So these machines weigh about 450 lbs. Let's be generous and call it it 600 lbs of raw aluminum barstock before machining. At 60 cents per pound price increase as a result of the tariffs, that's only an extra $360 per machine. Your backers paid $4300-$4700 each.

    Answer truthfully: Can you complete these machines if each customer paid you an extra $500 each?

    If not, then tariffs aren't your problem, and you should just ship the incomplete machines to your customers now and call it quits. You only have one chance to figure this out. You can ask for extra money once, but absolutely cannot ask a second time.

    P.S. How are you surviving? Do you have a day job?

  8. Likes TeachMePlease liked this post
  9. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    289
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    41
    Likes (Received)
    111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    @GenericDefault I assume the machine being leased can be taken off your floor if you throw in the towel (for now) and refund your early adopters.
    With the exception of Haas VMCs, CNC machines are just like cars in that their values plummet the second you take possession. So unless GD put down 40%, he's underwater, and I've never heard of gap insurance for equipment leasing.

    Usually the only way out of an equipment lease in this type of situation is to default. No pun intended, but what a strange irony in his choice of forum handle.

  10. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    West Unity, Ohio
    Posts
    24,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4975
    Likes (Received)
    7603

    Default

    Sure seems like an awfull lot of concern for a toy that most any of us wouldn't be caught dead with, and wouldn't dare discuss on this forum.

    ???

    Mostly just the sport of ripping someone else a nother hole ....


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  11. Likes cameraman, mTeryk, dstryr, SRT Mike, 3t3d and 1 others liked this post
  12. #88
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,399
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3025
    Likes (Received)
    652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar987 View Post
    With the exception of Haas VMCs, CNC machines are just like cars in that their values plummet the second you take possession. So unless GD put down 40%, he's underwater, and I've never heard of gap insurance for equipment leasing.

    Usually the only way out of an equipment lease in this type of situation is to default. No pun intended, but what a strange irony in his choice of forum handle.
    Makino try to push their own in house financing with a leasing scheme. They recommend that for R&D type stuff where the future is uncertain and the lease can be terminated and they remove equipment from your floor. Obviously after the term of the lease there is the option of a $1 buyout. YES overall it's more expensive that way than regular financing or straight up purchase.

    So I don't know if GD got a good deal and if things go "Tits up" then he can take a bit of hit but theoretically he should have some $ to refund ? [I haven't followed the financial paper trail on this ;-) … Too scary for me (tales by the camp fire with up lit flashlight / torch; I have to summon up the courage to read the second half of Perry H's post lol .).

  13. #89
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,399
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3025
    Likes (Received)
    652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Sure seems like an awfull lot of concern for a toy that most any of us wouldn't be caught dead with, and wouldn't dare discuss on this forum.

    ???

    Mostly just the sport of ripping someone else a nother hole ....


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox


    I think Jashley / jasher's kinda nailed it on the original (other) thread.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    First - I don't see how you expect to sell those for $4700, and turn a profit. There's a ton of work there...

    Second - congratulations for actually building a working machine. That is no small task in itself, and deserves some respect.

    Third - Don't invest in your own CNC machines to make these. Even if you stick to this design, have the parts water-jet and machine outside, and simply concentrate on the assembly. This will save you tons of (machine) time, and help preserve your cash.

    Fourth - Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think a mill-turn is the best route for a hobby machine. Instead, I'd focus on a 3-axis mill, and a 2-axis lathe. Maybe a Y-axis lathe if you wanted to get ambitious. I'd try to design as much similarity between the machines as well. IE - The lathe's headstock could double as a 4th axis on the mill. The base castings for the lathe's Z-axis & saddle, could also produce the mill's Y-axis saddle & X-axis ways. The mill's spindle & lathe's live-spindle could be the same. The lathe's turret & mills toolchanger could be made from the same parts. And so on...

    This would do a few things. 1- It would make the learning curve & up-front investment for your customers much less. It would also greatly reduce your manufacturing costs, and let you use better materials, like cast-iron.





    But, don't just take my word for it. Best of luck with it all.


    But GD is trying to make/machine stuff and kinda got behind the 8 ball.

    I think a bench top 5 axis horizontal would be cool that is super rigid and precise with an air spindle (built on granite base) but cant's see how that could be done for less than $75K


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
    I'm thinking $20k for a 5 axis electrode generator for moldmakers is a no-brainer. The market is there...just find it.
    ^^^ This is an interesting idea perhaps … But hard NOT to think of "China" to make it affordable . Maybe Taiwan .

    Trodemaster - Methods Machine Tools

    ^^^ Don't know much about the "Trodemeister/trode master"...

    __________________________________________________ ____________________

    I think overall some of us have some empathy for GenericDefault and have probably at one time or other 'Effed up spectacularly (at least once or twice in our life times.).

    Maybe GD is young... Always best policy for paying customers to be completely honest about mistakes that direct affect them and take full responsibility for that.

  14. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    289
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    41
    Likes (Received)
    111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Sure seems like an awfull lot of concern for a toy that most any of us wouldn't be caught dead with, and wouldn't dare discuss on this forum.

    ???

    Mostly just the sport of ripping someone else a nother hole ....


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    This point was brought up in the original thread.

    The meat of the discussion has nothing to do with the product being made. He used Kickstarter to fund a manufacturing project. That product could be hobby machine, SpaceX parts, or dildos. Who cares, it's inconsequential.

    Starting a business, buying a VMC, and machining parts out of aluminum is absolutely relevant to this forum.

  15. Likes cameraman, Ox, rcoope, Jashley73 liked this post
  16. #91
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,399
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3025
    Likes (Received)
    652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Harrington View Post
    I was reading the most recent replies and pondering, there is something I find odd. His last kickstarter update was over 10 days ago, but from this discussion he seems to be at a rather dynamic time.

    So, my quandry is why didn't he figure out exactly what he needed to finish his pile of parts and ship them? Why wasn't this information presented to backers up front, instead of a long philosophical diatribe on tariffs?

    It seems like much of the principal machining was complete long before the tariff issues, based on his palettes of material and updates on anodizing, etc.

    If he's 9/10ths of the way to the finish line, why not present "more backing" as the only option to backers and give them a firm cost?

    This is not a discussion you wait 2 weeks or a month between turnarounds, it's dynamic and you have it NOW in semi-realtime.

    The other things which strike me as not really fitting with the official narrative are:

    * Leasing a machine is the same as buying, except you give them $1 to take ownership at the end of the payment term. Leasing a machine is expensive, probably $3k a month for that machine. That's a big nut to take out of your kickstarter.
    * Taking 18 months from close to now just increases your carrying costs, every month you're not shipping to backers you are burning. The lease on the machine, power, and shop is probably in the $6k/mo range, at 18mo that's $108k, not much of the kickstarter is left after that.
    * The product wasn't DFM'd before the kickstarter was launched. This is a huge cost and probably a good part of the 18mo timeline. He only had 36 units to make, but built multiple prototypes before doing production. I'd guess he started making parts before the 2nd prototype was finished and maybe he has some scrap, or maybe he got stuck in some form of process paralysis?

    It seems to me that he pissed away the kickstarter funds by not having a DFM'd product and taking too long to get it done. By the time he was ready to order more material (probably because he wanted to be "lean" with his cash flow), he got hit by price increases. If he was buying tons of AL at once, these wouldn't be as substantial because you can negotiate more on bigger orders. However, if he did all his big orders up front and deferred material orders for subassemblies that hadn't been DFM'd yet, then he'd be ordering hundreds of pounds and not tons, which has less negotiation room.

    If I had to point to a root cause for his troubles, it was going to backers with a product instead of going to backers for R&D to be done, subsequently followed up with a product. Kickstarter is a product based economy, not a business phase economy. If you go to KS with a product that hasn't been fully R&D'd and you quote product prices, you're gonna have to eat the R&D costs. If you include R&D in the costs, then you risk not being backed due to the high price.

    Every garage niche manufacturer has absorbed R&D out of pocket, kickstarter seems to cater to would be garage manufacturers with the promise of riches, but the new wave of garage guys haven't DFM'd a product and seem to only have soft skills. Soft skills don't make products, only ideas of products.
    ^^^ That's a pretty superb analysis.

    "I'd guess he started making parts before the 2nd prototype was finished and maybe he has some scrap, or maybe he got stuck in some form of process paralysis?"


    ^^^ Was wondering that as well ?


    Understandable as any full roll out represents a massive design freeze and does not allow for much further improvement unless you have really good modular design.

    I was wondering whether it's tricky for GD or maybe anyone to hit the tolerances he needs with a regular CNC vertical ? Thinking precision fittings and the like ? Accurate bores without sleeves or liners or harder materials ground or otherwise ? (very speculative on my part not accusatory...)

    I have to bail and actually do some work lol shhhh ! (play catchup and not trash the "Day" with someone else's "Probs").

  17. #92
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Country
    PHILIPPINES
    Posts
    2,188
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    383
    Likes (Received)
    542

    Default

    As I sit here on this hot ass Saturday morning having my breakfast beer and bacon samich I decided to watch some of this guys videos. Over the past hour or so several things got me doing some thinking about this again. The guy first claimed that Ellison was two months late delivering the machine. OK, this Is Ellison, they have a good reputation and with 16 locations I highly doubt that they where two months late (I have an email in to a buddy at Ellison in CA about this). It is possible that the machine was delivered late so lets move on to the where he says "The machine was late and Trumps tariffs are the reason we cant build the machines". After watching the videos this morning I noticed you had machined all the big heavy parts. So if this is the case surely a few little widgets haven't broke the bank!

    While watching the videos I was scrolling through the comments to see if anyone noticed how poorly the machine work was but noticed most people where complaining about the transparency, Even some backers wanting explanations. They seem to post updates only after several complaints come in just to give some lip service.

    Moving on to the videos, Yeah, Your several hundreds of hours of being a machinist are starting to show.


    • Do you own a chamfer mill?


    • Why do you always start your hole making cycles before facing? (do you enjoy deburring parts by hand?)

    Using a file and deburring knife on a machined "way" surface must look like $#it.

    • Why do you run smaller tools at slower rpm's than big tools?
    • Your T-slot cutter sticks out longer than a well diggers prick, Do you understand rigidity?
    • Why do you run just one pass with the T-slot cutter on the ways? Do you know what a finish pass is?
    • Why are there no reamed holes for alignment pins?
    • Most of your cuts squeal at the end of the cut. Do you know what ark/lead in and out is.
    • You say most here on PM are not good at production work like you, yet you are slower than a job shop. Explain?
    • Why do you rapid a Renishaw probe into a hole that may or may not be there?


    And finally the big concern. You claim you are holding micron tolerances, yet you machined the ways in a restrained condition in two ops with only one flip. Please explain how you managed to machine cheap 6061-T6 40" long on all four sides and managed to keep the warp down to a micron! I guess with all that donated money you must have bought a 4' inspection plate and some nice inspection tools to check those kind of tolerances. I feel quite confident that if you put that on a CMM the print out would be a potato chip.

    You may wonder why I have such a hard on for you. First you blame your problems on a very respectable machine tool provider, and then when that wears off you blame them on the president of the United States! You have no transparency yet I see right through your BS. You're asking for more money from people you already promised a working machine because you FKD up. You need to man up and start taking responsibility. Go to the bank, get a loan, and deliver on your agreement...

    You are trying so hard to hide your name, address, and phone but that's not going to stay hidden much longer. Some of these people that invested 6 or 7k with you may pay you a visit when they find out you pissed their money away.

  18. Likes Garwood liked this post
  19. #93
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Middletown, PA
    Posts
    472
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    156
    Likes (Received)
    55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    [*]Your T-slot cutter sticks out longer than a well diggers prick,
    Sorry....but that right there was worth the price of admission.

  20. #94
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Tennessee
    Posts
    308
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    83
    Likes (Received)
    88

    Default

    Your math is as good as the potus.. the backers gave max 5 (five is one hand of fingers, seven is a hand and two toes, 7 is bigger). bright side, they have a company that is just as profitable as trumps wine, steaks, airlines, and casinos.
    oh, I am in America, I see you are, in that area with no corruption and drug problems in power, judge while you day drink and dream of the ditch diggers that make you feel girly on the inside.

  21. #95
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Country
    PHILIPPINES
    Posts
    2,188
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    383
    Likes (Received)
    542

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by memphisjed View Post
    Your math is as good as the potus.. the backers gave max 5 (five is one hand of fingers, seven is a hand and two toes, 7 is bigger). bright side, they have a company that is just as profitable as trumps wine, steaks, airlines, and casinos.
    oh, I am in America, I see you are, in that area with no corruption and drug problems in power, judge while you day drink and dream of the ditch diggers that make you feel girly on the inside.
    Ouch a fellow Tennessean with sarcasm, Ahhh, you wont get a rise out of me. The backers gave around 5K then they had the option of the O-drive upgrade at just shy of $300 per axis. So not quite sure what the analogy with fingers and toe was (I'm guessing your not a very good machinist and already lost a few digits in the workplace)?

    As far as the Trump analogy? Well yeah, the poor fella managed to have a few of his 500+ businesses fail. Considering 50% of small businesses fail in the first year and less than 1% of his have failed I would consider that a success in my book. You could always throw in the fact hes a billionaire and President of the USA if that makes you feel better. What exactly have you accomplished?

    As far as living in a corrupt country with a drug problem? Yeppers, The corruption here is bad. If I get caught speeding just give the cop $5 and i'm on my way. Drugs, not so bad since the president declared open season on them. 7000+ dead dealers and users in three years. The drug problem here is not near as bad as the Meth in Tennessee. I bet over half of the applicants I sent for pre hire drug screens came back either on Meth or Opiates.

    And the day drinking, It does get a bit boring living on an island. Wake up, check my emails, have some cute little tan islander cook my breakfast and serve me beer. Not a whole lot to do when you only work about an hour a day. So yeah, couple of beers in the A.M. never hurts.


    I didn't quite get the ditch digger feel girly inside thing. Must be something that goes on in Memphis?

  22. Likes BSCustoms, charlie gary liked this post
  23. #96
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,775
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    166
    Likes (Received)
    959

    Default

    All of this is pure speculation...both the positive and negative opinions. There's a lot of missing info and I'm sure we will not find it out. Or there's no missing info and this guy just plain got unlucky. Either way pride needs to be put aside and the investors need to be spoken with.

  24. Likes g-coder05, digger doug liked this post
  25. #97
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pillager, MN
    Posts
    5,647
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1844
    Likes (Received)
    5111

    Default

    Good thread..............hard not to judge/speculate what the deal is here with GD......................but from all of our collective experience here on PM(machinists, engineers, biz owners), the product is a poor design(all ali), priced too cheap, and financed/marketed(KS) in the wrong way. Hopefully everyone who threw down cash gets something and GD gains some hard learned knowledge...............

  26. #98
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    barcelona, spain
    Posts
    2,237
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    507
    Likes (Received)
    1350

    Default

    Agree with the sentiments.
    GD screwed the pooch, and the excuses have little to do with it.
    GD was advised but had zero interest in learning why and how manufacturing costs stack up.

    Sure tariffs may have had an effect - so what.
    Everyone here in manufacturing has more than 25% on stuff-happens marginal costs on base materials+work like sawing+delivery.

  27. #99
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    West Unity, Ohio
    Posts
    24,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4975
    Likes (Received)
    7603

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Everyone here in manufacturing has more than 25% on stuff-happens marginal costs on base materials+work like sawing+delivery.




    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  28. #100
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Country
    PHILIPPINES
    Posts
    2,188
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    383
    Likes (Received)
    542

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    Good thread..............hard not to judge/speculate what the deal is here with GD......................but from all of our collective experience here on PM(machinists, engineers, biz owners), the product is a poor design(all ali), priced too cheap, and financed/marketed(KS) in the wrong way. Hopefully everyone who threw down cash gets something and GD gains some hard learned knowledge...............
    Yeah, hard not to judge. Every time the guy opens his mouth its an excuse. If you go back to his original post asking for advice you will see not one time did he except anyone advise. I thinks its about over now though, Ellison is not quite happy with Overlord blaming them for the root of their failure.

    GD Claimed,
    "The root cause was Ellison shipped the machine two months late thus causing them to not be able to afford the last of the material due to the tariffs."

    Well, here's one of the emails from Brandon Mathis at Ellison stating the machine was in stock, sold, and delivered within two days.... Lets see what GD's response to this is.

    Hi Gerald,

    I’ve spoken to Daniel Knipp, the Sales Engineer who worked the project in Southern California at Overloard. From what we discussed, there was no delay in shipping them the new machine. Ellison keeps the Doosan DNM 5700 in our inventory year-round. There was a little delay in configuring their financing package and spindle type, but that is typical for a first-time buyer. The machine was sold in August 2018, and delivered 2 days later. The machine was installed on August, 22nd 2018. Since then, there has been no open service or applications issues.

    Would you please forward me links to the Kickstarter and the forums where Ellison was mentioned?

    Feel free to call me anytime, or reply to this email.

    Kind regards,

    Brandon Mathis, CMTSE
    Sales Manager

  29. Likes Garwood, RC Mech, Pariel, SRT Mike liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •