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  1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Is something new? I did see one of the backers posted on the KS page that he has realized he probably is not getting anything.
    From KS

    Overlord Robotics CorporationCreator5 months ago


    We did get the shipment of all our machined parts from the US, as well as the stepper motors and some of the other smaller components like motor couplers and collet fixtures for the turrets. When it became apparent that the pandemic would be lasting indefinitely, we started to switch suppliers where possible, so that now almost everything we are using is made in Taiwan locally, with the exception of the electronic control boards and a few other key parts. We also developed a large PCB board for 9 axis simultaneous control with industrial grade plugs and circuit protection. While the Kickstarter design was intended as more of a DIY hobby type of machine that will be assembled by users, the new ones are completely assembled and wired in our factory.
    One of the problems we have run into is that most of the machined parts from the US were made with inch dimensions and and some inch hardware in mind, like dowel pins and lead screws, based on the availability of suppliers at the time. Now that we have moved and set up again, we have the challenge of maintaining forward and reverse compatibility between the Kickstarter machines and the newer cast iron machines we have developed. We have been switching everything to metric completely, but we are trying to keep mechanical parts interchangeable between the old and the new; our solution is to use the bulk of the machined hardware from the US but add parts of the newer machines onto them, like the gearbox for the headstocks, and the B axis swivel mechanism, which we have improved in precision by a factor of 10 over the Kickstarter model.
    So it is our intention to use the newer and improved, Taiwanese made metric parts to complete the American made Kickstarter SwissMaks. There are a lot of small details that prevent this from being easy to implement. As an example, we planned to ship the Kickstarter machines with 160mm (6 inch) 3 jaw chucks from Alibaba, and we machined the spindle faceplates to fit the mounting boss and hole pattern. However, here in Taiwan, the availability favors the DIN (German) standard of the same sized chuck, which has a different hole pattern, and the quality of the Taiwanese chucks is much better than the Alibaba ones, although the Taiwanese chucks are significantly more expensive. We may also upgrade all of the Kickstarter machines to use P4 angular contact bearings; since some backers paid extra for this option, we will have to figure out a solution to be fair to everyone. The price metrics are very different in Taiwan compared to the US. Some things which were prohibitively expensive in America are much less expensive here, while other things that were cheap and available in the US are hard to get here. The supply chains are just very different, and this pandemic has made it difficult and risky to rely on anything made outside of Taiwan.

    Another (outdated) pile of steaming crap



  2. #1142
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    I saw that one and just shook my head. But his backers are coming around now.

    [QUOTE]

    matt
    22 days ago
    I have no inside info, but reading between the lines of a very long thread on the Practical Machinist forum about this project, I have to conclude that I and the rest of you Kickstarter investors will never receive a SwissMak.


    Perry claims he is no longer a majority stakeholder in the SwissMak company, which to me suggests strongly that this KS project has failed. Why? Because every investor I've ever met spends day 1 on the job cancelling any optional liabilities. They already spent our money, and have no responsibility to deliver a product.


    To be sure, I hope I'm wrong. And for what it's worth, Perry posted this to PM today (12/29): "We still have all the Kickstarter machines here and I intend to finish and ship them." I would personally really appreciate hearing a bit more detail about that, like: what's left to do? When will they ship? At this point, any promises about completion seem long overdue and unbelievable.
    /QUOTE]

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  4. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    I saw that one and just shook my head. But his backers are coming around now.
    As a side note, "the pandemic" has had absolutely zero effect on shipping for anything we have done in the past eight months.

    The only effect the pandemic has had on supplies appears to have been a toilet paper shortage in the US. Which seems appropriate for this project ....

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  6. #1144
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    Appears valid. Steppers only turn 1/200 of a metric or proper rotation per step. You have to know which kind before ordering. A standard lead screw would never work on a metric servo too.
    I set all our shop machines to counts per 5 frog hairs as a happy medium.

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    I was looking at swissmak website and it looks like they have a upgraded version with a cast iron base and enclosure with coolant. My cnc experience is limited but it looks like the project is still being developed and some progress has been made. Honestly it seems like they need someone to handle Pr for them and send out an once a month update to keep interest in the project. SwissMak

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    Well, figured out where Perry has been hiding all this time since ghosting his backers and stopping his replies here... He spends all his time on the ODrive Discord server under Generic Default, because no one asks him hard questions there.

    ODrive forum post with Discord link

    screenshot-2021-03-09-103325.jpg

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  10. #1147
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    Looks like the backers are coming to the realization they got shafted.

    screen-shot-2021-03-10-3.11.42-pm.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Looks like the backers are coming to the realization they got shafted.

    screen-shot-2021-03-10-3.11.42-pm.jpg
    Interesting, because I was always under the impression that Kickstarter and Indiegogo offered no promises on delivery of an actual product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    Interesting, because I was always under the impression that Kickstarter and Indiegogo offered no promises on delivery of an actual product.
    I think this gets into the weeds on jurisdiction and contractual law. The donors do not have any direct property rights upfront since these are all promises for goods or services that do not exist at the time of the donation however the recipient is taking the money in good faith that they will deliver the services or product that is being presented.

    I do feel sort of sorry for the people that gave money to this project but at the same time I do not think it is very good business to give money to an individual for a nonexistent product that is a huge stretch technically at a relatively cheap price. Typical too good to be true deal that turns out to be a bad deal for the donor.

    The donors do likely have some legal recourse following a multitude of avenues such as mail fraud, etc., however you can not get blood out of a turnip. I suspect that at best all you can hope to get is a box of parts and components for uncompleted machines and this is assuming that all of the monies did go for purchasing components.

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    This whole thread/story just reinforces my philosophy about fixing problems. They have to be done from the inside out.

    What I mean is going back to the beginning. The OP wanted to what? build 5 axis machines for the masses? build something new? Maybe not even build them but just see them on the market. It all implies that the industry/market had a perceived flaw that he wanted to fix and make a dollar.

    That's all cool. What I have issue with is when people want to fix a problem and they do it from the outside. They don't want to get in the dirt of it they just want to throw solutions at the problem and hope it goes away. If the OP really wanted to get into machine manufacturing, he should have worked a few years at a machine manufacturer and saw what it really takes to build a machine and run a business. It sounds to me like every shenanigan that's gone down here is all stuff that "the industry" knows. Supply chains, facility location, lead times, basic design principals, working with investors, etc. etc. etc. None of this is hidden information, but you have to get your hands dirty and work to learn and implement it. It's sad that this guy had an interesting idea that has gone through this much of a PR nightmare, but it all just seems so avoidable. It would be super cool to start an American based machine tool company, but I think I would have put in a few years building tooling or at least job-shop work and created the business before I jumped all in trying to wrestle such a massive unproven design.

    Kickstarter is not for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I think this gets into the weeds on jurisdiction and contractual law.
    Funny he moved out of the country then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    Interesting, because I was always under the impression that Kickstarter and Indiegogo offered no promises on delivery of an actual product.
    I'm thinking that might be relatively new. It didn't seem there was any such provision a few years back when I was reading up on failed ventures on KS. Even if it does apply to GD's project, backers are left with the cost/benefit of hiring lawyers to chase him down.

  20. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I think this gets into the weeds on jurisdiction and contractual law.
    It would be interesting to see what a court would find, of course that isn't going to happen. Criminally as for fraud, he started out with good intentions, and did make an attempt to deliver as promised. He didn't start with the lying and deception till well after he had the Kickstarter money and probably even had most of it spent.

    As for monetary claims in a civil court, would a KS terms of use policy hold up as a legally binding contract?
    One could say "buyer beware", but that isn't considering the fact a very small percentage of consumers would be educated enough to realize Overlord Robotics LLC had zero chance of delivering the product as advertised for that price. Also the above named company is the one who collected the KS money and a previous poster said it is long since defunct.

    A couple posts above someone posted a link to the new SwissMak website. Looks like not a whole lot has happened since that video link was posted. No prices listed and the machine still has no ball screw covers, wires than aren't bundled, exposed open bearings, etc,etc. Claims to hold better than 5 microns without using sensors, amazing! I guess open loop stepper motor systems have had some major technical advances.

  21. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    This whole thread/story just reinforces my philosophy about fixing problems. They have to be done from the inside out.

    What I mean is going back to the beginning. The OP wanted to what? build 5 axis machines for the masses? build something new? Maybe not even build them but just see them on the market. It all implies that the industry/market had a perceived flaw that he wanted to fix and make a dollar.

    That's all cool. What I have issue with is when people want to fix a problem and they do it from the outside. They don't want to get in the dirt of it they just want to throw solutions at the problem and hope it goes away. If the OP really wanted to get into machine manufacturing, he should have worked a few years at a machine manufacturer and saw what it really takes to build a machine and run a business. It sounds to me like every shenanigan that's gone down here is all stuff that "the industry" knows. Supply chains, facility location, lead times, basic design principals, working with investors, etc. etc. etc. None of this is hidden information, but you have to get your hands dirty and work to learn and implement it. It's sad that this guy had an interesting idea that has gone through this much of a PR nightmare, but it all just seems so avoidable. It would be super cool to start an American based machine tool company, but I think I would have put in a few years building tooling or at least job-shop work and created the business before I jumped all in trying to wrestle such a massive unproven design.

    Kickstarter is not for me.
    Completely agree. Experience is a dear teacher.
    I can't remember if you saw the thread last week? The guy was first asking about the forces involved, using small tools? He was another guy that was convinced he knew better than everyone else here, ended up insulting other members posting. It would be interesting for someone to play detective and see his actual location, or if he was a previously banned member.
    Guys also show up in my little part of the world sometimes expecting to solve every issue with wishful thinking. Everything from the perpetual motion machine on to a "magic" carburetor jet kit that will reduce engine vibration, eliminate oil consumption, make "crazy power" and reduce fuel use at the same time, while also optimizing ignition timing. There was an old Robert Heinlein story about a guy that could get everything done just by thinking about it. If it could only be so......

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  23. #1155
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    Completely agree. Experience is a dear teacher.
    I can't remember if you saw the thread last week? The guy was first asking about the forces involved, using small tools? He was another guy that was convinced he knew better than everyone else here, ended up insulting other members posting.
    I did not read that thread, but I seriously wonder where some people are coming from. I sure wish this place was around when I was learning the trade or even starting my own shop. Would have saved a lot of frustration and money. It seems like some people are just coming here for affirmation and when they don't get it they start insulting people. Obviously there are some guys who have 1 year experience 25 times, but with a little common sense it doesn't take long to realize who to ignore when it comes to giving advice. I wonder if part of this attitude some have comes from what is taught in schools. Just look at the OP here, couple of years of mechanical engineering and he morphs into a know it all, with zero respect for those that have been there and done that. I think it is comical how he said machining was the easy part, yet we never saw a Swissmak he made bolted together and now all the machining appears to be outsourced. I wonder why?

  24. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    I wonder why?
    He blamed Trump

  25. #1157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    He blamed Trump
    For all the supply sourcing issues and cost over runs, but now that all that is solved moving to Taiwan, why no in house machining when he said that was so easy.

  26. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post

    It is so easy to be a armchair whiner so go build it. Prove you are capable in this field. Put up or shut up.
    You whine yet can not do better. Show us how you can do it.
    Bob
    You can't be serious. By your strange way of thinking a person has no business critiquing anything unless they are willing to go out and do better. So everyone who has ever sat down and complained about a meal they should shut up unless they go out and open a restaurant serving the same dishes that are better made. As for implying I want the dude to kill himself, where does that come from? Your reading comprehension is strange to say the least, that also seems to leave you from time to time. If you read any of GD's postings he believes he is never at fault for anything and seems to lack a conscience, I doubt he has shed one tear over the investor's money he has burned. Comparing him to any of your own plights you shared makes zero sense.

    As for me building a CNC machine, my technical knowledge ends at the circuit board, no matter how hard I tried to learn I lack the aptitude to learn how they function. So unlike GD I know my limitations and stick to what I am good at, and don't claim to be someone I am not.

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    CONGRATS!!!!!

    We all have just passed 1150 posts about a machine none of you would ever buy, that will never be made by someone who is not qualified to build such machine and commented on by hundreds who are also not really qualified to build it either.

    Good job.

  28. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    CONGRATS!!!!!

    We all have just passed 1150 posts about a machine none of you would ever buy, that will never be made by someone who is not qualified to build such machine and commented on by hundreds who are also not really qualified to build it either.

    Good job.
    Hey, if he actually gets a fully functional machine, not a prototype, I'll buy one. And I'll put it right next to my Yasada mill and Haas grinder...


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