Talon grip jaws holding power?

edge22 · Mar 11, 2021

We are going to try a new to me process but still unsure on the holding power. I bought a set of the Talon Grip jaws for a 6in Kurt vise.
I have 7L X 3.5W X 1.750H 6061al block I am profiling using a 2.000 diameter 90 degree face mill .336 depth of cut and taking that cut 5 times in Z also pretty much full width of cut in some areas of the part.
So my question is this expecting too much from just holding on to around .060 with the Talon grip jaws and not using HSM tool paths or will it have plenty of holding power?

Finegrain · Mar 11, 2021

On edit ...

Wait, you are really taking off .336" in Z x 2" WOC, in one pass? Well, that's aggressive. Maybe I'm not understanding your terminology :scratchchin:

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Talon Grips will hold for that cut no problem. Make sure the stock has parallel faces (not some ragged bandsaw cut), no excessive fillet from the extrusion die, clamp down hard to allow the teeth to create divots, then clamp with medium pressure to minimize vise and stock flexing.
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Regards.

Mike

Finegrain · Mar 11, 2021

OK, if your final Z depth is .336" x 5 = 1.68", then I would forego the facemill and use an HSM toolpath with a 1/2" or 5/8" EM.

Regards.

Mike

wheelieking71 · Mar 11, 2021

edge22 said:
We are going to try a new to me process but still unsure on the holding power. I bought a set of the Talon Grip jaws for a 6in Kurt vise.
I have 7L X 3.5W X 1.750H 6061al block I am profiling using a 2.000 diameter 90 degree face mill .336 depth of cut and taking that cut 5 times in Z also pretty much full width of cut in some areas of the part.
So my question is this expecting too much from just holding on to around .060 with the Talon grip jaws and not using HSM tool paths or will it have plenty of holding power?

First very important detail you left out: what machine are you doing this in?

Finegrain said:
OK, if your final Z depth is .336" x 5 = 1.68", then I would forego the facemill and use an HSM toolpath with a 1/2" or 5/8" EM.

Regards.

Mike

I completely disagree Mike. Even in a Speedio.
So much so, I am doing exactly what the OP proposes in my S300 because it is faster. Way faster. And, the chips are WAY easier to deal with.
When I gave the Yamazen apps guy the program he was like: "why don't you just rough that with an end-mill? These things are so fast."
I said: "just run it". Afterwards he said: "dang, that shoulder-mill is rippin'!"

It is loud though. That would be the only negative in my application.

FWIW, I use this technique ALL the time in Talon-Grips. I would definitely decrease the axial DOC to around .200" though.
You are going to want to slow your feed on inside corners if you have any.

If this was a pocket we were talking about. That would be a different story.

Also, I usually mill about .020" off the shelf the stock sits on, on the jaws to get me to about .080" holding depth.
If your stock has perfectly square corners? .060" is fine. But, watch that radius on extruded bar! It will bite you if your not paying attention!
I would also want to see 4 grippers per side on stock that size. And, tighten with a torque-wrench.
Sneak up on the torque until you have nice little "snake bite" witness marks from every gripper. You can easily over-tighten Talon-Grips.
If you tighten so tight that it lifts the stock? You are in the danger zone.

Mike1974 · Mar 11, 2021

Talon grips should be ok, but I've never cut that aggressively though. As said, clamp hard to leave indentations for the grips then back off some.

edge22 · Mar 11, 2021

Machine is a Mazak VCN 410b, plenty of power and it does not even grunt at that.

Jrill · Mar 11, 2021

Talon grips work great for aluminum and you should be able to rough pretty hard. You need to watch a few things though, like, if you're cutting down to 0.070 thick around the entire OD you're going to drastically reduce the rigidity of the part when you get there (depending on how wide the 0.070 rim is). Also I ripped a part out once by trying to take a big cut on a part that was "standing up" in the jaws, where the stock height was 3x the width, so don't do that.

Probably need 3 or 4 grips per jaw. Tighten until they sink in a bit, like 0.010"ish.

gregormarwick · Mar 11, 2021

I have talon grip-like solid jaws and on those I take bigger cuts still with bigger tools all the time with aggressive cutting data. I also have a couple of Gerardi 5ax vices with screw in grip inserts like talon grip. The Gerardi inserts have an advantage over the talon grip inserts in that they are located in a closed pocket rather than a slot, so it's not the screws that are taking the lateral forces. Finally I have some plain soft jaws with talon grip inserts, which I guess is what you guys are talking about. I bought those for an aluminium job years ago and have never used them again since.

The weak point for heavy cutting on talon grips is the screws that hold them into the jaws. When clamping a part with lot of force you put a good amount of tensile load on those screws because the dovetail is pulling the talon grip out of the carrier, and then when you take a heavy cut you are putting a lot of additional lateral force on those little screws.

I don't really do much heavy cutting with the gripper inserts and I haven't ever found their limit. Solid gripper jaws though, they can take pretty much whatever you can throw at them.

Rick Finsta · Mar 11, 2021

I have seen the talon grips pop apart where the knife edge meets the body, but have never seen a screw give up the ghost.

Tighten them to pre-stamp and then loosen and re-tighten. I've taken some really aggressive cuts and not lost a part using that method.

When I have seen them break it was because someone wasn't using the torque wrench and wasn't pre-stamping then re-tightening.

wheelieking71 · Mar 11, 2021

edge22 said:
Machine is a Mazak VCN 410b, plenty of power and it does not even grunt at that.

Not very impressive by Mazak standards, but here is a 3" shoulder mill, and 1-1/4" shoulder-mill going to town on some 1.5" x 4.5" x 10" stock in Talon Grips:

20131128 145742 - YouTube

The axial DOC there on both tools is .185". 12k RPM, and 150ipm. Only shared to show that the Talon-Grips held just fine.
That was in 2013. I actually just ran that job again last month. And, probably used some of the same grippers that were used in the video.

Mud · Mar 11, 2021

Rick Finsta said:
I have seen the talon grips pop apart where the knife edge meets the body, but have never seen a screw give up the ghost.

Tighten them to pre-stamp and then loosen and re-tighten. I've taken some really aggressive cuts and not lost a part using that method.

When I have seen them break it was because someone wasn't using the torque wrench and wasn't pre-stamping then re-tightening.

How tight do you make them?

gregormarwick · Mar 11, 2021

wheelieking71 said:
Not very impressive by Mazak standards, but here is a 3" shoulder mill, and 1-1/4" shoulder-mill going to town on some 1.5" x 4.5" x 10" stock in Talon Grips:

20131128 145742 - YouTube

The axial DOC there on both tools is .185". 12k RPM, and 150ipm. Only shared to show that the Talon-Grips held just fine.
That was in 2013. I actually just ran that job again last month. And, probably used some of the same grippers that were used in the video.

No video unfortunately, but I have a repeat job that I do in my solid gripper jaws, 150mm thick burnout S690QL, operations include drilling with a 75mm insert drill outside the edge of the vice, and slotting, shouldering and profiling with a 70mm porcupine cutter.

Jaws are plain hard jaws in a wedge jaw modular vice, I machined a step and 60deg serrated dovetail in them 4mm deep. That was about 10 years ago, they are pretty beaten up now, but they still refuse to ever let go of a part.

wheelieking71 · Mar 11, 2021

gregormarwick said:
No video unfortunately, but I have a repeat job that I do in my solid gripper jaws, 150mm thick burnout S690QL, operations include drilling with a 75mm insert drill outside the edge of the vice, and slotting, shouldering and profiling with a 70mm porcupine cutter.

Jaws are plain hard jaws in a wedge jaw modular vice, I machined a step and 60deg serrated dovetail in them 4mm deep. That was about 10 years ago, they are pretty beaten up now, but they still refuse to ever let go of a part.

You are kind of reminding me of these jaws I made a long time ago. Just a simple .125" step under-cut with a dovetail. I left a small flat on top so they weren't dead sharp.

wheelieking71 said:

gregormarwick · Mar 11, 2021

wheelieking71 said:
You are kind of reminding me of these jaws I made a long time ago. Just a simple .125" step under-cut with a dovetail. I left a small flat on top so they weren't dead sharp.

Nice setup!

edge22 · Mar 11, 2021

gregormarwick said:
No video unfortunately, but I have a repeat job that I do in my solid gripper jaws, 150mm thick burnout S690QL, operations include drilling with a 75mm insert drill outside the edge of the vice, and slotting, shouldering and profiling with a 70mm porcupine cutter.

Jaws are plain hard jaws in a wedge jaw modular vice, I machined a step and 60deg serrated dovetail in them 4mm deep. That was about 10 years ago, they are pretty beaten up now, but they still refuse to ever let go of a part.

What brand solid gripper jaws do you use?

gregormarwick · Mar 11, 2021

edge22 said:
What brand solid gripper jaws do you use?

Like I said, they're not off the shelf unfortunately. They are standard hard jaws that I machined.

Although Gerardi do have similar jaws as standard for their modular vices I think.

wheelieking71 · Mar 11, 2021

edge22 said:
What brand solid gripper jaws do you use?

I really like these: Piranha Hard Jaws .08 step | MMM-USA LLC

I am using their grippers in my S300 robot cell, and they work fantastic!
I like them better than the Talon-Grips. Mainly because they use a "real" screw! 5/16-18 to be exact. vs. the pathetic 10-32 for the Talon-Grip.
They cost a little more. But, you get A LOT more. I personally see a much higher value with the MMM-USA grippers.

Jrill · Mar 11, 2021

wheelieking71 said:
You are kind of reminding me of these jaws I made a long time ago. Just a simple .125" step under-cut with a dovetail. I left a small flat on top so they weren't dead sharp.

I've never seen a vise mounted on a rotary table like that. Love it

Jrill · Mar 11, 2021

Has anyone tried the new long serrated talongrips?

Talongrip™ Long Length Serrated Grip | Mitee-Bite Products LLC.

wheelieking71 · Mar 11, 2021

Jrill said:
I've never seen a vise mounted on a rotary table like that. Love it

That was born out of a time crunch, and not having an HMC at our disposal. That angled surface had a finish call-out on the print.
There are better ways to do that. But, I had 48 hours to produce a working prototype to land a huge contract with Ti.
We had the rest of the job in the bag. But, Ti wanted to keep the whole thing under one roof. Boss said "I don't care how you do it, just make it happen!"

Talon grip jaws holding power?

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