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Thread: Tapping m6x1.0

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cv321 View Post
    So i am really new at the machining game. anyway i have a customer that has a part that they want made out of either 17-4 SS or A2. anyway there is a 2" depth hole in the part that they are wanting tapped all the way with a m6x1.0 tap. i am having trouble finding a tool either a tap or a thread mill that is long enough. any recommendations would be helpfull.
    Who designed that shit?? M6 50mm deep???? I am sorry but I agree with Milland on this one. The customer needs to either actually see what a part looks like that deep or needs a wake up call.
    I am going to be honest, even on your 30mm that is crazy! FFS 1.5 x D is pretty much more than goo enough for engagement. Are there parts on either end that get fastened up? I'd be asking loads of questions to the customer before I even attempted it. And if they REALLY needed it that deep I would give them a ridiculous price on Quote... And then probably still run into a wall after realising that I should have never taken it on.

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    I've said it before: There has to be more interaction between designers and builders. This is just the latest example.

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    We shouldn't be too quick to assume the customer's engineer is a moron who doesn't know anything. Sure, sometimes that's the case, but ASSuming that they are dumb because they designed something tricky to make is just like the customer ASSuming the machinist is dumb because he didn't deburr a certain edge on a part. It's possible the customer knows exactly what they are doing and need that feature, and it's possible the machinist is deburring on the machine and couldn't reach that one edge because of some ingenious clamping they came up with.

    I designed a part a couple years back that used a 5/16" finished OD x 5"L titanium rod drilled through with a fine thread starting .500 deep and with 1.5" length of thread. It was for a set screw which acted as an adjustment mechanism for a mating part that went into the tube. It was a pretty novel design. Of course I had to make it and it was a little bit of a pain in the ass, but I only junked 2 or 3 parts before I got my process down and the rest ran like butter.

    You can't assume intent when you don't know what was in their mind.

    And also, don't we like doing complex work? Who wants to cut squares with holes in them all day? That shit will disappear when a bigger fool comes along and bids the job lower. Quote them on that 10D thread they want and let them pay a premium for it. If some chump quotes the job cheaper without looking at the thread, let them lose their shirt instead of you.

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    Mike, if you read the thread, in post #4 the OP stated that the customer changed the design to suit the manufacturing process.......soooo it was a dumb unnecessary design.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    1.
    Tichy ..
    How many holes M6 would you expect to tap, through, in 6,8,10 MM steel, free machining.
    For one tap.
    With what through-hole size in the same steel of 6,8,10 mm thickness ?

    How fast per hole, tapping cycle, and tool-tool cycle time?

    For that 6 / 10 mm D hole, what quality would You expect to deliver ?
    What go/no go gages would You expect to work and not work on those holes ?

    And on how many holes You expected, until the no-go does not go in/through ?
    It's hard for me to really say because I don't often run series of thousands of parts and I haven't broken a tap using this type of cycle. However, I think the last job batch was 150 parts of stainless 1.2333 with 4 x M5 holes per tap, blind holes, 15mm deep tapping, holes tested fine with 6H gauge and the tap came out fine and showed no damage to speak of.

    I'll have to get back to you on exact data tomorrow because obviously I work Saturdays (hooray.) I'll check some tested M6 data too. Note tho I run my speeds very conservative (tho the others at my job run them even slower...)

    Bottom line is I don't expect I'll deliver something breaktaking here, and if your job is to optimize cycle time for mass productions my data will leave you wanting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    We shouldn't be too quick to assume the customer's engineer is a moron who doesn't know anything. Sure, sometimes that's the case, but ASSuming that they are dumb because they designed something tricky to make is just like the customer ASSuming the machinist is dumb because he didn't deburr a certain edge on a part. It's possible the customer knows exactly what they are doing and need that feature, and it's possible the machinist is deburring on the machine and couldn't reach that one edge because of some ingenious clamping they came up with.

    I designed a part a couple years back that used a 5/16" finished OD x 5"L titanium rod drilled through with a fine thread starting .500 deep and with 1.5" length of thread. It was for a set screw which acted as an adjustment mechanism for a mating part that went into the tube. It was a pretty novel design. Of course I had to make it and it was a little bit of a pain in the ass, but I only junked 2 or 3 parts before I got my process down and the rest ran like butter.

    You can't assume intent when you don't know what was in their mind.

    And also, don't we like doing complex work? Who wants to cut squares with holes in them all day? That shit will disappear when a bigger fool comes along and bids the job lower. Quote them on that 10D thread they want and let them pay a premium for it. If some chump quotes the job cheaper without looking at the thread, let them lose their shirt instead of you.
    That is fine... until they see your quote is 3x the next few guys and they don't ever send you any RFQ's anymore...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cv321 View Post
    made out of either 17-4 ss or a2
    17-4 ... Or ... A2 ?????????

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    Thanks !
    A lot.
    In gummy hard grabby stainless, I think You did really well and am (somewhat) quite impressed.

    15 mm deep in stainless for a skinny, weak, 5 mm tap, is hard to do.
    A VMC ?, rigid tap ?, hole size, what did You use ?

    Ime taps run better fast, but then there is no error margin.

    Thanks a lot for Your comment, appreciate it a lot if You can post some data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tichy View Post
    It's hard for me to really say because I don't often run series of thousands of parts and I haven't broken a tap using this type of cycle. However, I think the last job batch was 150 parts of stainless 1.2333 with 4 x M5 holes per tap, blind holes, 15mm deep tapping, holes tested fine with 6H gauge and the tap came out fine and showed no damage to speak of.

    I'll have to get back to you on exact data tomorrow because obviously I work Saturdays (hooray.) I'll check some tested M6 data too. Note tho I run my speeds very conservative (tho the others at my job run them even slower...)

    Bottom line is I don't expect I'll deliver something breaktaking here, and if your job is to optimize cycle time for mass productions my data will leave you wanting.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Thanks !
    A lot.
    In gummy hard grabby stainless, I think You did really well and am (somewhat) quite impressed.

    15 mm deep in stainless for a skinny, weak, 5 mm tap, is hard to do.
    A VMC ?, rigid tap ?, hole size, what did You use ?

    Ime taps run better fast, but then there is no error margin.

    Thanks a lot for Your comment, appreciate it a lot if You can post some data.
    Thanks for the kind words, not sure if I deserve them.

    First off as far as I am aware I do not do mission critical taps, as in if it fails it could kill someone. Simple rule is if the hole tests okay with 6H gauge it's okay. However the holes are often deeper than the reach of the gauges. So we'll test with a gauge then with a screw, or test both sides if it's not a blind hole.

    We're a small company. I'm a new machinist with less than two years work experience.

    I checked my code for the last M5 holes. I use 4.3mm sc drill. By the way that's listed as recommendation in Wedewåg's table (local Swedish drill manufacturer,) Dormer recommends 4.2mm. For M6 I use 5.1mm (same story, Dormer recommends 5mm.)

    Yes, it's a VMC. Doosan Mynx, Bt50, pretty old and worn, spindle seen better days, strong and rigid tho.

    This is very much amateur hour experimentation I feel, but what I use is an open ER20 collet for M5 through M10 taps (ie. rigid holder, rigid cycle.) In 304 I run at about Vc10, I've run faster too with no obvious problems, this is still a learning curve for me. Then I use through-spindle coolant and through-spindle air gun. This gives a mist effect.

    It's important that the parameters for the tapping cycle are correct. My peck retract parameter is 1mm. It was at 0.1mm, I think that's the default(?), which just, eh, doesn't work.

    Code for M5 spiral tap:

    M7
    G95M29S600
    G4X6
    M14
    G84R2.Z-15.Q5F0.8

    The wait is so the coolant will start pouring, then the air activates (M14.)

    I feel Q5 is really conservative for M5, I think Q7 is enough. My thumb rule is if hole is deeper than tap diameter, I peck once. (Code above pecks at -3, -8 and -13. Q7 would peck at -5 and -12.)

    Hope I managed a decent answer. May add some M6 data if I find it, workplace is a bloody mess
    Last edited by Tichy; 10-12-2019 at 06:08 AM.

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wesg View Post
    17-4 ... Or ... A2 ?????????
    A2 in this context is probably not what you think it is.

    A2 and A4 are commonly used for stainless fasteners, A2 being 304 or 18/8, and A4 being 316. I have no idea why the fastener people use this designation, but they do.

    Anyway, late to this but:

    I work a lot with 17-4. It form taps quite freely in all conditions. even H900, and I will go a long way out of my way to avoid cut tapping it.


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