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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    True. But I guess it depends how you work and also what types of parts you make.
    In a prod shop, "usually" the CAM file won't have the same speeds/feeds as is running on the machine, because when proving they've been optimised.
    And the prog would be saved after manufacture and run next time etc etc.
    The CAM file would only be looked at again if there was a revision change, then I would (and others I know) post out the new amended prog, and then run this and the existing through file compare to add the previous revisions.
    I totally agree. However, the challenge is scaling this process for those of us who do small production runs or things that might get rev-ed half a dozen times. Even if we ignore the potential to mess something up, copying G10 lines by hand on a program with 100 operations gets cumbersome fast. Not to mention, in our case, when the shop owner (who can be a bit of a hack) decides to program/run something, he always winds up reposting 4 or 5 times before the first article is complete.

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    If everything will be posted out from CAM as you have stated. Doesn't this really come do to integration with the machine builder you choose you purchase from. And the next few key items listed below. This is also assuming you get all options needed on the control.

    These are the things the operator will have to deal with daily
    1. Ease of loading programs. USB or from server network ect. I use server network and its very easy and never have issues.
    2. Work offsets. Many to choose from and work very simple just like HH.
    3. Tool table and offsets. 840d is endless. I would say the 840d is a little more powerful than the HH

    As for the tool and pallet changer recovery that will come down to builder of the machine.


    If you plan to have probing and or laser tool setter. I believe the HH has better integration and ease of use with the HH controls. This statement stands if you use Renshaw probe and Blume laser. Not sure if any of this helps or is of any use. This thread seems to be less and less about your original question and more about fanuc.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insert View Post
    I have two Siemens machines, and love the control. Granted its the only real control I have used.

    1st Machine was a VMC with Siemens, when they delivered it, they walked me through it for about 30 min, that night I was up and running. When I bought the machine it was agreed they would have a Siemens guy come out for a few hours. I waited a few weeks, so that I could find problems and build a list of questions. Didn't really have anything that was a show stopper, when he came out he just showed me a couple nice features I didn't know about. Since then I have probably emailed him 2 or 3 times with questions.

    I was casually in the market for a lathe, and Covid happened, I saw a used machine dealer with a lathe with Siemens control, I wanted it cause of the control. Went to look at it, and kicking his tires and asked how flexible price was (this was in March, when everyone was panicking), he said its got a Siemens control nobody wants it, I'm flexible. I laughed, caused thats the reason I wanted it. Offered him half price, and he didn't even flinch, its sitting in my shop now The day the machine was delivered, I was making parts with no support from anyone.


    I have had no problems, and love it. 99% sure I will stick with Siemens from here on out.
    Siemens has started a youtube series to help you learn, and can email the instructor when you have questions, with anything about the Siemens Control. You tube name is Mr CNC Mr CNC - YouTube

    I only have one gripe with it, there is no way to check spindle time or axis movement time.
    What 3 axis VMC do you have with the Siemens control?

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    I used to try to do everything in CAM, but the are too many applications where you have to get way into the point of diminishing returns. We're probably never going to hold interpolated features to a couple tenths right out of CAM. Also shifting features in CAM when parts warp, etc... is a huge PITA.
    This is true, however I rarely need to hold tenths, so for me it's easy to get right in cam. Most of our work is plus or minus .005, or .002. if I'm holding tenths I'll do it on my 5 axis because it's such an accurate machine. HH allows for decimal tool numbers (tool 30.1 for example) for additional offsets within a given too, perhaps your aware. I've only needed it a few times. That being said I like the idea of well thought out ideas, and that seems like a damn good one. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by imachine909 View Post
    If everything will be posted out from CAM as you have stated. Doesn't this really come do to integration with the machine builder you choose you purchase from. And the next few key items listed below. This is also assuming you get all options needed on the control.

    These are the things the operator will have to deal with daily
    1. Ease of loading programs. USB or from server network ect. I use server network and its very easy and never have issues.
    2. Work offsets. Many to choose from and work very simple just like HH.
    3. Tool table and offsets. 840d is endless. I would say the 840d is a little more powerful than the HH

    As for the tool and pallet changer recovery that will come down to builder of the machine.


    If you plan to have probing and or laser tool setter. I believe the HH has better integration and ease of use with the HH controls. This statement stands if you use Renshaw probe and Blume laser. Not sure if any of this helps or is of any use. This thread seems to be less and less about your original question and more about fanuc.
    Haha yes we have devolved into a fanuc debate.

    That being said, ideally ide like to run this machine as a very job specific machine, so ide prefer to run everything from a server, or directly from the control itself if I've got the memory. I don't want anyone having to choose and load programs from usb.

    Work offsets, I'm glad to know they are plentiful and easy. However I also plan on programming absolutely everything from a single offsets. Seems crazy, but it works beautifully in the 5 axis world. (Maybe a couple to choose from) but if everything is programmed specific to this machine it should be easy.

    For tool tables, I actually find the HH to be a little more cumbersome when creating virtual pockets (I'm not sure what the practice is actually called, assigning tool number 745 to pocket 12) Do you find this process to be user friendly? Can my night crew figure it out easily?

    Ideally, all anyone should have to do is select the correct tools, load them, select the program and go. That's my dream anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRIAN.T View Post
    While I do appreciate the reliability of fanuc driven machines. I find that we (my operators) have far more errors (and crashes) on fanuc interface then they do with my heidenhain. I'm able to setup the heidenhain MDI page with a clear list of commands and notes that anyone could follow. Probing, break check cycles, and tool tables that are so easy to understand I can teach even my newest of employees basic functionality in just a few days. Tool tables with names alone was enough for me to fall in love. Even though I fully agree it's still miles behind where it could be.

    I have heard A LOT about makino's integration, and I'm definitely intrigued. I need to get in front of one before I say one way or the other. Doosan and matsuura also build on top of fanuc, they still seem a bit clunky, though I'm only saying that from an outsider perspective.

    I'll be looking into DMG for sure, though these machines seem to get as much hate as they do love these days, so I'm a bit concerned.

    ... I've got to go to work, I'll add more to this reply in a few hours. Thanks.
    heidenhain MDI is better than sliced bread!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRIAN.T View Post
    Haha yes we have devolved into a fanuc debate.

    That being said, ideally ide like to run this machine as a very job specific machine, so ide prefer to run everything from a server, or directly from the control itself if I've got the memory. I don't want anyone having to choose and load programs from usb.

    Work offsets, I'm glad to know they are plentiful and easy. However I also plan on programming absolutely everything from a single offsets. Seems crazy, but it works beautifully in the 5 axis world. (Maybe a couple to choose from) but if everything is programmed specific to this machine it should be easy.

    For tool tables, I actually find the HH to be a little more cumbersome when creating virtual pockets (I'm not sure what the practice is actually called, assigning tool number 745 to pocket 12) Do you find this process to be user friendly? Can my night crew figure it out easily?

    Ideally, all anyone should have to do is select the correct tools, load them, select the program and go. That's my dream anyway.
    The control will have plenty of memory for as many programs as you will have I would bet.

    As for work offsets standard you get G54-G57 then G505-G599 after that they get a little confusing for a low end operator. Running everything off one is the way to go in my mind. Makes things much cleaner and less likely to have operator issues.

    Tool tables and on HH and 840D we create off line and load just as we would a program for each job. I believe the 840D to be very user friendly maybe one hour tops needed for training on the tool table.

    Your statment "Ideally, all anyone should have to do is select the correct tools, load them, select the program and go. That's my dream anyway." I completely agree as long as the part aren't closer than +/-.001. Of coarse that is if you are giving them good programs, tooling, machines, coolant, and fixtures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    heidenhain MDI is better than sliced bread!
    Seimens actually has some really nice MDI features as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    heidenhain MDI is better than sliced bread!
    It really is. It's little stuff like that that makes modern controls worth the extra investment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imachine909 View Post
    Seimens actually has some really nice MDI features as well.
    That is excellent to hear. Tell me about some of them if you have the time? Are various MDI commands saved for later use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    What control?
    I have a macro for the 810 that gives cycle time and parts count, and also displays the time of day on the control while running in shopturn?
    My controls have that, cycle time, time left and parts count.

    I'm referring to total lifetime axis movement and spindle time of the machine. I have been meaning to just put an analog hour meter on it, just haven't gotten around to it.

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    Have 3 840d's on the floor all lathe. Had a 840c/611a and while the control was solid (after replacing the spinning HD to solid state) the drives just sucked. The 840d's were solid. I think i've replaced 2 drives and a power supply in 17 years running 24/5 on it and the other we bought used and have had it for about 3 or 4 years never had to replace anything yet, not sure about it's history.

    We replaced the 840c machine with a new machine that has the 840d-SL. So far only one major complaint is the simulation. It seems to work fine if the tools are from 1 channel on the main spindle, but if you are having multiple channel, wait codes and sub spindles it just looses it.

    this might not be much of a issue for you using cam but I program all on the machine and the Program writing editing on the machine is like notepad. I hooked a kb/mouse up and can highlight,copy paste. And the cycle support is simple pretty straight forward. and a nice little feature was grouping, highlight the lines you want grouped-> create group and it gets collapsed. do it for every tool and get almost a menu of the program.
    so you end up something like this

    +-tool1-turn-face
    +-tool2-groove
    +-t00l3-.5em

    right arrow over the highlighted group opens it up to see all the code, no endless pages of code. really tidies it up.

    And the trailon command makes pinch turning/milling simple. bring the upper/lower turret to the same start point with a wait code, start trailon and program 1 channel the other axis follows in x y z., really only 1 program to write.

    the control is using a windows hmi, cant say good or bad at this point. and again besides the sim issue all
    other issues were machine builder.

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    I can't believe I am going to say this, but have you looked at Mazak? Will take G code (eia) and the built in conversational if you do small jobs that could easily be done at the control. Not sure on a "plain" 3 axis mill, but the Integrex smoothx control lets you use T1a T1b and so on for different offsets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    The big problem with this is that it goes away when you repost. Really easy to mess up a part, or just lose your data.
    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    True. But I guess it depends how you work and also what types of parts you make.
    In a prod shop, "usually" the CAM file won't have the same speeds/feeds as is running on the machine, because when proving they've been optimised.
    And the prog would be saved after manufacture and run next time etc etc.
    The CAM file would only be looked at again if there was a revision change, then I would (and others I know) post out the new amended prog, and then run this and the existing through file compare to add the previous revisions.
    Or depending on the cam system, you can use what Mastercam calls "manual entry" and type in your G10 values and it will post it as code every time with the program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRIAN.T View Post
    That is excellent to hear. Tell me about some of them if you have the time? Are various MDI commands saved for later use?
    MDI commands are all saved unless deleted just as the HH. You can save them out like MDI-1 -2 -3 and so on and reload as needed/wanted for lots of quick things you might do while setting up a job or building a simple fixture. Also the copy and paste function is just as good as a PC. No limit on characters like many other controls have. You can run any of the machine cycles in MDI as you can on the HH. GOTO functions also are allowable in MDI for running little loops when needed.

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    Well IDK if I will get cought up on this thread or not.
    Prolly not, but I did read the firth page.
    But I will completel;y agree with Vanc's post on page 1.

    Tell me About seimens controls!


    <15 yrs ago I was in the market for upgrading my VMC's. I ass_u_med that I would likely end up with a Haas as I wasn't in need of a Caddy.
    However - I ended up with a pair of Hardinge mills with Siemens controls.
    At this point I was actually excited about the thought of getting a Kraut control and getting away from the Jap's.
    (Why is it that the Axis countries are the "go-to's"?)

    I had been running Cinci's for quite some time to this point, and even 25 yr old mills with Siemens back ends (amps/motors) had _ had very little to no issues ever!

    By that time I was starting to learn my way around a Fanuc control, but not a lot yet.

    It didn't take too many years before I was that crotchety old machinist.

    The 840's are likely better equipment, but the hardware on the 810D has left a bad taste in my mouth.
    I have much more issues with these per axis per age than I doo with my Fanuc equipment.

    Support is so so...
    I have sent a HMI button panel in for repair to Siemens, and I will say that they turned it around quickly and all was fine.

    I have 2wice called into Siemens for some clarifications as to how to code sumpthing as their forty leven page manuals still leave too much un-addressed.
    For instance - a canned cycle for thread milling. It appears that you can prog it for up to three passes - all at different engagement depths, but off the cuff I couldn't seem to git it to werk, and the manual didn;t touch on this at all! So I called in...

    I got the responce of "That is a 10 yr old machine! I doubt that anyone here knows how to program that anymore!".
    That was the second time that I called Siemens over the years for prog clarifications, and the second time that I was told that a 10 yr old control is too old, and to pound sand.
    I end up just calling the cycle 2 or 3 times now in stead of once with 2 or 3 passes.
    But I have a hard time believing that a new control progs that cycle any differently today?
    Or doo they change coding every few years just for the sake of staying "upgraded"? (and no-one knows anything?)

    Asking for help on here is almost pointless. There are VERY few with any clue about anything Siemens.


    With all that said - I just bought a 3rd Siemens mill.
    Why? Because it was dirt cheap, and I ran the sister machine with a Fanuc up to 2wice the price before I backed out of it. (and it was still @ half going rate)
    I have watched the same machines with the two different controls sell enough times to say that a 15 yr old mill with the Siemens is fetching 25-50% as that of the Fanuc. What does that tell yuh?


    One other thing tho - I did see a post early on I think that mentioned about not getting a control from a MTB that they don't use as default.
    Meaning, if you are looking at a Doosan with a Siemens, don't expect for it to run nearly as flawlessly as that with the Fanuc on it, as that is the one that has had the bugs werked out of it the most, and that the engineers understand the most. Have a question 5 years from now on that oddball mill with the Kraut control? Good luck...


    Now - if you are looking at a mill from Germany - from a company that uses Siemens control as the default, and has for decades, then by all means - get it, and NOT the oddball Fanuc model that they put out. But at least you can get help to make that oddball Fanuc werk properly from help elsewhere - that you likely are NOT going to get for the Siemens.


    I have never ran a Haas, nor a Hurco, but I did have a Dynapath years ago (my first CNC actually) and THAT control was the cats ass!
    That 35 yr old control was easier to understand than the bulk of today's stuff!
    But it wasn't nearly as rugged.


    On the flip side, (and even forget any help here on the forums) Just last week I called into Fanuc for some param adjustments that I wanted to make my machine doo sumpthing that it wasn't intended to doo, on a 25 yr old machine. The voice at the Fanuc Tech center dug around a bit and e-mailed me the answers that I needed - 2wice!

    12 years with Siemens controls has made me a BIGGER fan of Fanuc.

    You can have my Fanucs at the same time you take my guns.


    -----------------

    I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!
    Last edited by Ox; 09-30-2020 at 09:21 PM.

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    My CNC machine tool control experience is limited to the machines I have now. My only memorable experience with Siemens controls was with a piece of industrial equipment we had at my last job. It was a tablet press, basically new unused but 10 or so years old. It was a machine we inherited from another plant. Approximately a million dollar machine that was made in Switzerland. Even though it was not a cnc machine it still had basically the same type controls, servo drives, etc. We had a few problems with the control. Zero support on the control. They said it was obsolete. Tried to buy some stuff off ebay. In the end it was sold for parts.

    After having seen that I can't imagine using my own money to buy a machine with Siemens controls.

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    WOW!

    I have seen many transfer machines set up with 840's as they apparently lend themselves well to "stacking" if you will....

    Now the newer Fanuc models can run up to 30 axi's maybe?
    Which is still going to be more of the same "stacking", or whatever it may be called.
    Broken up into several 2, 3, or 4 axis paths.

    I have some transfer machines that run Indramats, and I'm guessing that the 840 is set up similar to how the Indramat is, but I am just guessing.
    (Master/Slave)


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    I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post

    With all that said - I just bought a 3rd Siemens mill.
    Why? Because it was dirt cheap, and I ran the sister machine with a Fanuc up to 2wice the price before I backed out of it. (and it was still @ half going rate)
    I have watched the same machines with the two different controls sell enough times to say that a 15 yr old mill with the Siemens is fetching 25-50% as that of the Fanuc. What does that tell yuh?


    One other thing tho - I did see a post early on I think that mentioned about not getting a control from a MTB that they don't use as default.
    Meaning, if you are looking at a Doosan with a Siemens, don't expect for it to run nearly as flawlessly as that with the Fanuc on it, as that is the one that has had the bugs werked out of it the most, and that the engineers understand the most. Have a question 5 years from now on that oddball mill with the Kraut control? Good luck...




    -----------------

    I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!
    Having worked for them for years and been their training guy, I can tell you quite bluntly to avoid the Siemens option on Doosan machines. Doosan itself is a good, solid, value machine that can make you money. But... I was the one in charge of training, and even I didn't get any training on Siemens!! There's only a handful, literally, in the Country and Doosan many times sends a factory guy (when they're here) or a Siemens guy out to work on them as very few at HQ even know them. If you buy Doosan go with Fanuc or Heidenhain. I found the Heidenhain to be a VERY good control and way more powerful than I thought.


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