Are there any small footprint but rigid CNC machines for prototyping? - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    When I was working on my ME (did years 3&4, funding dropped, so did I.) we had a CNC class with a lab and those little toys. They bogged down cutting plastic. Entirely useless for anything other than conceptual study.

    My understanding from Brother when I was shopping, they would have to special order the S300, as they don’t stock them, and the cost would be same or more than a 500. My shop is 1000sq ft, but if a 500 costs the same or less, I’m gonna make the 500 work.

    Someday I might make so much money that I don’t care that I can get a bigger, more capable machine for less money and still buy the smaller, less capable, more expensive machine. . . . . Oh wait, no I won’t.
    Brother Speedio S300 is not special order, I just bought one out of their (Yamazen) existing stock.

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    S300 is also slightly cheaper then the S500 last i checked, but its only like $5000 cheaper, so, probably not going to be relevant in a purchase. Where i live, space is worth more than the machine lease, so a small machine has merits even at the same cost. Fanuc also makes a machine of the same format, which is also cheaper i was told by the rep (how much i don't know).

    If you are doing "real" work, You get those (or something similar). The performance will make you money.

    But, there's a market for a machine that is small, low power, but still "professional" i think. I'm doing a pair of machines that fit that description, but on the router / light aluminium side of things (poor mans datron). I would like to do one that is more on the VMC side. Right now there are too many gaps in the parts supply for it though. Lower cost spindles in particular. What all the suppliers tend to do is think - oh, you want ISO20, you also want 40000rpm and ceramic bearings then! Then you explain, no, I want to also use 10mm bits in steel, and 25mm insert cutters. *blank stare*

    There's also issues with the control suppliers. I often get quoted control package prices that are higher than the retail selling price point of my machines. I often get quoted prices nearly as high as complete machines on the market WITH THAT CONTROL!

    sigh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    My understanding is he couldn't get his Tormach to cut accurately after delivery and returned it after trying to work with them to get it cutting right, not that he got cold feet? That is only one side of the story (his), though.
    My impression of that whole thing was: he bought a machine that was not fit for purpose.
    There was nothing "wrong" with the machine necessarily, It was never going to meet his expectations and he didn't have the knowledge or experience to know that ahead of time.

    Tormach's main failing was to sell it to him in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    S300 is also slightly cheaper then the S500 last i checked, but its only like $5000 cheaper, so, probably not going to be relevant in a purchase. Where i live, space is worth more than the machine lease, so a small machine has merits even at the same cost. Fanuc also makes a machine of the same format, which is also cheaper i was told by the rep (how much i don't know).

    If you are doing "real" work, You get those (or something similar). The performance will make you money.

    But, there's a market for a machine that is small, low power, but still "professional" i think. I'm doing a pair of machines that fit that description, but on the router / light aluminium side of things (poor mans datron). I would like to do one that is more on the VMC side. Right now there are too many gaps in the parts supply for it though. Lower cost spindles in particular. What all the suppliers tend to do is think - oh, you want ISO20, you also want 40000rpm and ceramic bearings then! Then you explain, no, I want to also use 10mm bits in steel, and 25mm insert cutters. *blank stare*

    There's also issues with the control suppliers. I often get quoted control package prices that are higher than the retail selling price point of my machines. I often get quoted prices nearly as high as complete machines on the market WITH THAT CONTROL!

    sigh.
    Keep in mind that the Brother S300 has identical casting to the S500 and S1000, and other than work envelope is pretty much identical, thus not totally fair to expect price of S300 to be substantially less expensive than the bigger models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Keep in mind that the Brother S300 has identical casting to the S500 and S1000, and other than work envelope is pretty much identical, thus not totally fair to expect price of S300 to be substantially less expensive than the bigger models.
    indeed.

    fanuc used to make the mate, which was the same size, and (at the time) 35k or 40k us. brother and fanuc would do well to make a stripped down fluff free low cost version again. i wonder why they stopped - low demand, or they cant make them for that price anymore so people would just buy the higher model?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    My impression of that whole thing was: he bought a machine that was not fit for purpose.
    There was nothing "wrong" with the machine necessarily, It was never going to meet his expectations and he didn't have the knowledge or experience to know that ahead of time.

    Tormach's main failing was to sell it to him in the first place.
    Greg Jackson that founded the company always made it clear that the user / buyer would always be required to get into the machine for maintenance and fixing stuff. I.e. you had to know how to use a multimeter and if need be replace bearings and so on to fix whatever was not right from Chinese assembly. It's shipped straight from China.

    Given the initial low price point of the first machines in smaller numbers that was always an expectation (from both ends, seller and buyer).

    So I still kind of feel that NERDLY got cold feet as Tormach would expect him to soldier on and solve the problem himself (in large part).

    The reason why NYCCNC received sponsorship from Tormach is so that most of the problems and use case scenarios (in a good way ).would be covered very extensively by Saunders. He (Saunders) took the bull by the horns and initiative on that.

    So having Tormach reference or point to Saunders' videos etc. was kinda the plan. [Something that NERDLY complains about.].

    But NERDLY was all in / super enthusiastic about the platform initially.

    But admittedly I think Tormach oversold the machine for his application and I would split "blame" 65/35 (%) Tormach / NERDLY but IF you want better service and a better machine then something like HAAS is a better fit. So as mistakes go that certainly is not a catastrophic life ruining decision / life lesson "Learnt".

    There ARE things that are kinda wrong with the Tormach that could have been done right from the very start, but Greg Jackson was dealing with a ton of problems in mainland China.

    If you watch the NERDLY video see how he pushes and pulls on the machine with substantial "lost" motion that seems unfixable (somehow).

    Overall I think it's cool that Greg Jackson's dream was realized and the Tormach "Peeps" now own the company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    If you watch the NERDLY video see how he pushes and pulls on the machine with substantial "lost" motion that seems unfixable (somehow).
    This is actually one of the things that i found suspect in the video. As an owner of 3 different novakons, my neighbour having 2 tormachs, i know very well what works and doesnt on them, what breaks, where they are sloppy... and that "play" didn't make ANY sense. It seems more like he was backdriving the screws with the power off than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    S300 is also slightly cheaper then the S500 last i checked, but its only like $5000 cheaper, so, probably not going to be relevant in a purchase. Where i live, space is worth more than the machine lease, so a small machine has merits even at the same cost. Fanuc also makes a machine of the same format, which is also cheaper i was told by the rep (how much i don't know).
    I was curious how much smaller the S300 is, so I went to look it up. The S500 is only narrower than the S700, depth and height are the same. The S300x1 is narrower, but it's also a foot deeper and 3" taller, which surprised me.

    Even more OT, I also saw that there's a new version out, the x2, but it doesn't look like we get it in the US. They made the S300x2 a little bit shallower, plus the spindle acc/dec is better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    Since we don't actually know what the parts are other than desktop mill sized I'm going to weigh in on the other side of the price point argument. The best prototype machine is a fast and extremely accurate 5-axis mill-turn It's just faster for anything but the simplest 2.5D parts , almost all of the fixturing issues are removed when things get complicated, and I can get a perfect part off the machine on the first try. I use cutter comp only a few times a month on the Willemin 308S2 because the parts come out to +/- 0.001" just by programming to the CAD file.
    Looks like a very nice machine. About how much do they run?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielG View Post
    Looks like a very nice machine. About how much do they run?
    Yes. this. haha. That's a cute machine.
    Datron made a machine of that type too, but its REALLY small. 4" cube travel. And REALLY expensive. More than a DMU50 eco.

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    There was a mikron 5 axis at CMTS this week too. Small 5 axis, ultra precise, linear motor. But huge money. Again shows that the manufactures assume if you want small, you also want crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielG View Post
    I was curious how much smaller the S300 is, so I went to look it up. The S500 is only narrower than the S700, depth and height are the same. The S300x1 is narrower, but it's also a foot deeper and 3" taller, which surprised me.

    Even more OT, I also saw that there's a new version out, the x2, but it doesn't look like we get it in the US. They made the S300x2 a little bit shallower, plus the spindle acc/dec is better.
    To get my S300 into my shop, Yamazen sent a tech out who removed a bunch of attachments that sit on top of machine, then re-installed after we got the machine into my shop. It is possible to get a reduced transport height of 81" via this technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    To get my S300 into my shop, Yamazen sent a tech out who removed a bunch of attachments that sit on top of machine, then re-installed after we got the machine into my shop. It is possible to get a reduced transport height of 81" via this technique.
    If I knew I could get a 700 in my shop I may pull the trigger next week. I have 84" and my Sharp fit with less than 1/2" clearance top and bottom and the Z-axis servo pulled... time to talk to Yamazen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    If I knew I could get a 700 in my shop I may pull the trigger next week. I have 84" and my Sharp fit with less than 1/2" clearance top and bottom and the Z-axis servo pulled... time to talk to Yamazen.
    Checkout my thread New Machine Day: Deckel, Weiler and Brother showing my Brother Speedio being inched under the 82" height doorway.....Yamazen did a great job on this install....

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    Ha! They angled it to get the Z-axis low enough. Brilliant. Not sure that would work with the width on a 700 or 1000 unless you tilted it while oriented 90deg from that; slip the servo under the frame and then lower the back side.

    Alright, derail off!

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Checkout my thread New Machine Day: Deckel, Weiler and Brother showing my Brother Speedio being inched under the 82" height doorway.....Yamazen did a great job on this install....
    Nice thread …

    Checking out the Weiler stuff looks nice are they really that good ? (looks sweet , never run one ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Nice thread …

    Checking out the Weiler stuff looks nice are they really that good ? (looks sweet , never run one ).
    Yes, the Weiler is really good...reputed to match Monarch 10EE in accuracy, and since it is new modern machine it has some really nice digital features including computer aids for tapering, threading, real-time speed adjustment as diameters reduce during turning, etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Yes, the Weiler is really good...reputed to match Monarch 10EE in accuracy, and since it is new modern machine it has some really nice digital features including computer aids for tapering, threading, real-time speed adjustment as diameters reduce during turning, etc


    That's what I was wondering as it does kinda look "Monarch-ish" in a way and was reading about the handy features you mention particularly tapers/ tapering + nice as you say "real-time speed adjustment as diameters reduce during turning, etc. " as I wasn't sure that's what they meant being translated into English from German.

    Thanks for that,

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Keep in mind that the Brother S300 has identical casting to the S500 and S1000, and other than work envelope is pretty much identical, thus not totally fair to expect price of S300 to be substantially less expensive than the bigger models.
    Actually, the 300, 500 and 700 use the same castings. S1000 is completely different. They are the same depth wise as well just depends on what coolant tank it is spec'd with.

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    OP,
    This popped up on ...bay yesterday. Would it fit your needs?
    DYNA-MYTE-CNC-MILL-MACHINE-CENTROID-CONTROLLER-


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