thoughts on kitamura machines?
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 49
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    308
    Likes (Received)
    110

    Default thoughts on kitamura machines?

    specifically mytrunnion4g. the spec sheet looks impressive and so does the price. anyone have experience with these machines in general?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    2,982
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6958
    Likes (Received)
    2525

    Default

    No experience with their machines but their latest "Arumatik" controls look beautiful. You get a Mits control with a Fanuc-like overlay, but looks like they have tons of functionality built in.

  3. Likes Cycle1000 liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    929
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1094
    Likes (Received)
    573

    Default

    I programmed for a few Kits for a few years a while ago. One was brand new, and it was awesome. Two were about ten or so years old and ok, a little loose. One was 20+ years old and sucked. When the Turcite wears they'll get loose. These were all horizontals, and we struggled to hold .002" except on the new one. On the oldest one I could push the tombstone .005" by hand. The machines were used probably about 18 hours a day their whole lives though, so some of that's to be expected.

  5. Likes cameraman liked this post
  6. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    specifically mytrunnion4g. the spec sheet looks impressive and so does the price. anyone have experience with these machines in general?
    'Sup Empwoer !

    Yeah I checked into this machine...

    I'll preface this with prices and capabilities for certain options are local to me... So you might get better deals and prices and greater capabilities for less.

    The thing I like about the Kitamura machines is their emphasis on build geometry* and actual geometric accuracy in build from hand scrapping pretty much everything they can.

    The machine comes reasonably priced without rotary scales... BUT the trunnion is not that accurate (at least on paper without them) [Which is surprising ??? Right ?)]. BUT with rotary scales has pretty acceptable rotational accuracies but puts it into a price bracket that is NOT so price / performance ratio ~ friendly. Linear and rotary scales make sense.

    The control is really cute and interesting. They put a lot of thought into it.

    Dr. Kitamura is a very interesting character I think and what he aims to achieve with his company.


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________


    * Dr Kitamira when he describes true geometric straightness and alignment and linear movements perpendicular and square on all three axes and says that other machine builders don't do that he's trying to make a little "Dig" at Makino (for example their F3 and F5 ) for what sets his approach apart from other Machine Tool builders. As well as some other machine builders that interpolate and calibrate linear movements digitally rather than have it dead on in the iron.

    @Empwoer maybe you get a better deal or can twist "their" arms , who deals Kitamura in your territory ?

    That machine has rolling element linear guides (if memory serves me right ? Will check).

  7. Likes empwoer liked this post
  8. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Here's an excerpt from a quote I got …

    Productivity Enhancing Options and Applications
    Linear Scale Feedback (X, Y, Z Axes Only)----------------------> $ 28,600.
    Linear Scale Feeback (4th/5th Axes Only)-----------------------> $ 18,000.

    _______________________________________

    3 Step Cycle Finish Lamp -----------------> $ 960.
    Automatic Power Off Device ----------------> $ 4,860.


    Spindle Warm-Up Timer -------------------> $ 5,740.

    *Note: Automatic Power Off and Spindle Warm-Up Timer cannot be Installed together


    Automatic Work Compensation ---------------> $ 12,280.

    Included: Automatic Centering
    Automatic Work Coordinate

    _______________________________________

    Offset Compensation Through the Measurement
    Kitamura Standard Software Package
    Renishaw OMP400 Probe


    Tool Presetter Package “C” (Length & Dia.) $ 8,380.
    Included: Automatic Tool Length & Diameter Measurement
    Automatic Tool Length & Diameter Offset Compensation
    Cutter Breakage Detection
    Tool Life Control (Tool Life Management)
    Spare Tool Selection
    Renishaw TS-27R Sensor

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________


    Do you see the potential translation error there ? ^^^^ (from Japanese to English ?)

    Guys I was dealing with are very nice but couldn't wrap their head around what was wrong with the above so we couldn't agree on a price that made sense.

  9. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    4,400
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    803
    Likes (Received)
    2366

    Default

    Rotary scales should not be an option in any case. This an area where many builders will omit an accuracy critical component to hit a lower price point than their more quality conscious competitors.

  10. Likes cameraman, gregormarwick liked this post
  11. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Rotary scales should not be an option in any case. This an area where many builders will omit an accuracy critical component to hit a lower price point than their more quality conscious competitors.
    Damn right ! Some machines manage Ok without a direct rotary encoder on one axis and can be linked indirectly like the C axis on an integrex I-200 (Kind of thing) still positions really accurately. The Okuma M-460V 5ax does something similar on one axis (at least).

    Normally linear scales are between $12 and $22K as an option all three axes for a good machine of this size and type.

    Rotary encoders like the Heidenhain type that are not of the super super accurate (variety) are around / between $4K to $6K a piece.


    Basically all your scales linear and rotary (for the precisions and accuracies they are going for) should be all together of the order of $28K

    The linear scales should be of the order of $18K. (for this Kitamura.).

    ________________________

    "Productivity Enhancing Options and Applications
    Linear Scale Feedback (X, Y, Z Axes Only)----------------------> $ 28,600.
    Linear Scale Feeback (4th/5th Axes Only)-----------------------> $ 18,000."

    ________________________


    ^^^ How do you have a linear rotary scale ? Like saying a straight line circle ? [Yes straight line is a circle of infinite radius and some Knuckle style universals use a lever on a linear axis... Neither applies to the layout of this machine.].

    What it should say is

    Linear and rotary scales (XYZ, A,C) ------> $28,600
    Linear scales only XYZ ----> $18K

    [The bottom option is a sub-set of the first option ; not a separately broken out option to be further added to the quote.].

    But possibly through bad translation from Japanese to English IF you want linear and rotary scales that will cost you $46,600.00 AND if you want to do Work piece Error Setting Compensation (which is just simple-ish old-ish "code / software" (now) on the control) that's an additional $12K … So for a well functioning 5 axis machine they gouge you for $58,600 more.


    With other MTBs those options are standard or included or broken out separately like on some Mori machines and other MTBS; should only be $28K + haggled price down for $5K o(or less) of Work Piece Error setting Compensation on the control + other control options. So one is nearly getting gouged $30K more because of a bad translation / typo.

    They were trying to tell me the positional accuracy of the A and C axes were of the order +/- 20 arc seconds (without scales) which is very low, BUT kept telling me the machine can position to 2 micron on any linear axis full travel. They didn't get the fact that if you can't position the part accurately on A and C axes, all of that accuracy that Kitamumra is known for flies out the window ? [They totally didn't get that and kept repeating linear positions and accuracies ????? ].

    They kept pushing me to buy the machine with the No SCALES (at all) for linear or rotary axes. Which literally would not work for us. And me trying to point out there is an error in pricing and translation just flew over their heads, and would probably be impossible to correct anyway with communication problems from here to Kitamura head office USA and then onto Japan and back again.

    ______________
    Last edited by cameraman; 09-06-2019 at 07:09 PM. Reason: No scales

  12. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    4,400
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    803
    Likes (Received)
    2366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Damn right ! Some machines manage Ok without a direct rotary encoder on one axis______________
    I have not yet seen a rotary axis without a scale maintain long term accuracy.

  13. Likes cameraman liked this post
  14. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I have not yet seen a rotary axis without a scale maintain long term accuracy.
    Exactly and they are not that expensive if you are the MTB buying them with volume discounts.

    I don't get it a $250K to $350K machine and the MTB chooses to cheap out.

  15. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    308
    Likes (Received)
    110

    Default

    i did notice that the brochures sent out to me were very poorly translated, and had quite a few double listings of the same thing with slightly different wording.
    i found it very odd that they list tiny things like handles, lights and switches as 'features' lol...

    price wise i was told mytrunion 4G with 100 tool ATC and 250psi TSC would be 285k. this is NO PROBING! probing is 20k extra. but it does also come with camplete which is nice. tough call because this is okuma MV460-5ax territory and tbh i feel a lot better about going with okuma vs company i can hardly find any info on.

    also i asked the sales guy if the claimed accuracy was taking in account a/c axes, he said yes, but i doubt he even understood what i'm asking.

  16. Likes cameraman liked this post
  17. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i did notice that the brochures sent out to me were very poorly translated, and had quite a few double listings of the same thing with slightly different wording.
    i found it very odd that they list tiny things like handles, lights and switches as 'features' lol...

    price wise i was told mytrunion 4G with 100 tool ATC and 250psi TSC would be 285k. this is NO PROBING! probing is 20k extra. but it does also come with camplete which is nice. tough call because this is okuma MV460-5ax territory and tbh i feel a lot better about going with okuma vs company i can hardly find any info on.

    also i asked the sales guy if the claimed accuracy was taking in account a/c axes, he said yes, but i doubt he even understood what i'm asking.
    The sales guy I have / had was at IMTS last time and Dr. Kitamura was there , so took some time to get any real information about rotational accuracies.

    Their linear accuracies are definitely NOT volumetric accuracies for 5 axis taking into account rotational uncertainties.

    Modern 5 axis machine tools are very unusual as set apart from other high precision engineered systems (there are no course and fine adjustments like you have on other precision systems).

    There's not a special curvic coupling that When the table is at A 0, and B0 that its sets to cardinal 90 degree rotations and postions any better than +/- 20 arc seconds (anywhere within 40 arc second spread ) Which for a part fixtured 8" off a table is significantly away from their stated "2 micron" linear accuracies (they would be struggling significantly to achieve an 8 micron volumetric accuracy.).

    Tried to explain the mathematics to them and they didn't get it.

    Maybe for most of their customer's parts nobody notices anyway ?

    Personally I don't think Kitamura's strong suit is with rotary axes.

    But with all the proper scales (rotary and linear) should be quite good but seems you pay through the nose for that. Rightly or wrongly. Translation errors or otherwise. I just didn't want to dig to the bottom of everything and source the original Japanese documents and have them translated (as we do for Patents) as IF we prove they are in error and demand the lower price we are then obliged to buy the machine...

    I just quietly disappeared.(Wasn't worth the hassle , hoop jumping and price for us.).

  18. Likes empwoer liked this post
  19. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i did notice that the brochures sent out to me were very poorly translated, and had quite a few double listings of the same thing with slightly different wording.
    i found it very odd that they list tiny things like handles, lights and switches as 'features' lol...

    price wise i was told mytrunion 4G with 100 tool ATC and 250psi TSC would be 285k. this is NO PROBING! probing is 20k extra. but it does also come with camplete which is nice. tough call because this is okuma MV460-5ax territory and tbh i feel a lot better about going with okuma vs company i can hardly find any info on.

    also i asked the sales guy if the claimed accuracy was taking in account a/c axes, he said yes, but i doubt he even understood what i'm asking.
    Still 100 tools and 250 PSI TSC , That's a great price ! +CAMPLETE

    But no scales any axes.

    Our stripped down base price / base machine was about $250K base number of tools, but the essential "Options" do take the machine closer $300K and proper scales rotary and linear make it just as expensive or more expensive than it's rightful competitors for that kind of class of machine.

    Where we are we tend to get Fleeced a bit more price wise as compared to more dynamic and competitive states like California.


    ________________________________

    $20K probing is that with a laser tool setter / tool breakage detection ?

  20. Likes empwoer liked this post
  21. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    308
    Likes (Received)
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Still 100 tools and 250 PSI TSC , That's a great price ! +CAMPLETE

    But no scales any axes.

    Our stripped down base price / base machine was about $250K base number of tools, but the essential "Options" do take the machine closer $300K and proper scales rotary and linear make it just as expensive or more expensive than it's rightful competitors for that kind of class of machine.

    Where we are we tend to get Fleeced a bit more price wise as compared to more dynamic and competitive states like California.


    ________________________________

    $20K probing is that with a laser tool setter / tool breakage detection ?
    i believe so on the probing. but with those options, its literally a wash with okuma. i think i'd much rather go with okuma for that money.

    what are your thoughts on doosan?

    slightly OT, we just found out our LX needs a new spindle. thats gonna suck... but even with a new spindle i think its still a great deal! all other axes checked out great. tech said 99.99% of matsuura spindles die from a crash.

  22. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i believe so on the probing. but with those options, its literally a wash with okuma. i think i'd much rather go with okuma for that money.

    what are your thoughts on doosan?

    slightly OT, we just found out our LX needs a new spindle. thats gonna suck... but even with a new spindle i think its still a great deal! all other axes checked out great. tech said 99.99% of matsuura spindles die from a crash.
    DOOOSAN ? My thoughts on Doosan are pretty neutral in a very neutral way. I know some shops that have done very well with Doosan over the past ten years , but I think in this case it's more about a specific machine that is supported in your area/ territory. Always worth checking out / visiting other shops than are running the particular machine that you might be interested in.

    Not sure what you have budget wise left and work piece envelope , weight and tolerances.

    Maybe check out the DVF 5000

    YouTube

    ^^^ Interesting here they emphasize that their machine comes with rotary scales as standard as being more essential, (first) and then linear scales as an option.



    ^^^ Seems interesting that Doosan are trying to offer an alternative to a Matsuura MX 520 and the DMG Mori DMU 50 3rd gen. The part stocker carousel is an interesting move by them.

    It's a new machine so don't know anyone yet that has torn their arses on that one yet lol 'Cuz you are only jonesing for even more risk. yeah just buy that NEW model that no one has run yet.

  23. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i believe so on the probing. but with those options, its literally a wash with okuma. i think i'd much rather go with okuma for that money.

    what are your thoughts on doosan?

    slightly OT, we just found out our LX needs a new spindle. thats gonna suck... but even with a new spindle i think its still a great deal! all other axes checked out great. tech said 99.99% of matsuura spindles die from a crash.
    I was gonna ask the reason...

    One guy I know never runs his MX 520 above 15K RPM … I don't know if it's a balanced tool thing or what but he loves that machine.

    I know your LX spindle is different from the MAXIA spindle in their other machines. But the MAXIA spindle is amazing for 1 micron to near sub micron runout, but the type of bearings needed for that are more vulnerable / fragile , that's why I have always speculated that CAMPLETE is / was essential to Matsuura's success other wise many many many MAXIA spindle's would get trashed. Other MTBs settle for 2 to 2.5 micron runout with meatier bearings that can take heavy bumps / more of a pounding.

    MAXIA spindle seems very very nice though.

    On the LX that you bought it was a bank repo... (very low hours) , did the original owners basically crash the machine and then walked away from it / stopped making payments ? (Perhaps ?).

    If you don't mind me asking how much does a new spindle retrofit for an LX cost ? (Just out of interest ?).

    Ta.

  24. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    riverside, ca, usa
    Posts
    371
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    31
    Likes (Received)
    93

    Default

    20k Maxia is about $2 per revolution...

  25. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,706
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3217
    Likes (Received)
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jhearons View Post
    20k Maxia is about $2 per revolution...
    Ouch !

    :-)

  26. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    308
    Likes (Received)
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I was gonna ask the reason...

    One guy I know never runs his MX 520 above 15K RPM … I don't know if it's a balanced tool thing or what but he loves that machine.

    I know your LX spindle is different from the MAXIA spindle in their other machines. But the MAXIA spindle is amazing for 1 micron to near sub micron runout, but the type of bearings needed for that are more vulnerable / fragile , that's why I have always speculated that CAMPLETE is / was essential to Matsuura's success other wise many many many MAXIA spindle's would get trashed. Other MTBs settle for 2 to 2.5 micron runout with meatier bearings that can take heavy bumps / more of a pounding.

    MAXIA spindle seems very very nice though.

    On the LX that you bought it was a bank repo... (very low hours) , did the original owners basically crash the machine and then walked away from it / stopped making payments ? (Perhaps ?).

    If you don't mind me asking how much does a new spindle retrofit for an LX cost ? (Just out of interest ?).

    Ta.
    there's no way of telling what happened, the spindle taper doesnt have any damage which could indicate a crash. tech said using wrong oil for the spindle bearings could also cause premature failure. i dont have the official quote yet, but from what the tech said its gonna be roughly 80k... YOWZA!

    he said there's a shop locally thats replaced their spindle in a MX520 5 times in 2 years, they keep crashing it. crikey!

  27. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    4,400
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    803
    Likes (Received)
    2366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    ......but from what the tech said its gonna be roughly 80k... YOWZA!....
    Ouch for sure. I thought Makino was getting pretty crazy with their MAG spindles at about $70k installed. At least that buys you >100HP along with 32k RPM.

  28. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    308
    Likes (Received)
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Ouch for sure. I thought Makino was getting pretty crazy with their MAG spindles at about $70k installed. At least that buys you >100HP along with 32k RPM.
    100 hp WITH 32k rpm? holy sheit


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •