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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Ouch for sure. I thought Makino was getting pretty crazy with their MAG spindles at about $70k installed. At least that buys you >100HP along with 32k RPM.
    I would love to know where that cost goes. I'm sure there's a very large cost that comes with the high-precision bearings, and balancing the individual parts & assembly, buy still... What could possible justify that cost...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I would love to know where that cost goes. I'm sure there's a very large cost that comes with the high-precision bearings, and balancing the individual parts & assembly, buy still... What could possible justify that cost...?
    The owner needs a new boat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I would love to know where that cost goes. I'm sure there's a very large cost that comes with the high-precision bearings, and balancing the individual parts & assembly, buy still... What could possible justify that cost...?

    cray-cray-spindle-mag-3-makino.jpg

    This is what the MAG 3 spindle goes into ^^^ …

    Can't find torque curve for this but still how on earth they 'Fit" 133KW into that maximum torque; mainly for monolithic aerospace structures in Aluminum.



    Everything focused on serious MRRs, But some beautiful contouring / swarf milling along those steep walls (in the video) ^^^

    Probably if you flick through the Kaydon bearing catalogues you could find $20K worth of bearings. I'm sure Makino has better buying power for Japanese equivalents.

    No doubt Makino have their own special cooling and lubrication system for that spindle.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________

    In context and contrast Empwoer's spindle replacement almost costs the same …

    http://selwaytool.com/templates/selw...ura_lx-160.pdf

    ^^^ This the LX-160 , spindle taken to 46K RPM has a torque of 3 N.M (Newton Meters) [11 KW], but the spindle when moved by it's linear machine can achieve circularities of 1 micron (if you need that ) The runout must be 0.00000 ---> Tends towards "Zero" to achieve that. .


    I couldn't imagine a more opposite pair of machines.



    ^^^ LX-160 doing IRONMAN helmet/ mask .

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    @cameraman
    Can't find torque curve for this but still how on earth they 'Fit" 133KW into that maximum torque; mainly for monolithic aerospace structures in Aluminum.
    Here is the charts for the MAG 3 spindle I program.

    01.jpg

    02.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by jowens909 View Post
    Here is the charts for the MAG 3 spindle I program.

    01.jpg

    02.jpg

    37 N.M @33k RPM ; that's almost 27 foot pounds of torque at 33 K RPM almost unimaginable !

    [Normally torque curves sink towards zero (negligible) torque for anything above 28K RPM .].

    That second graphic 200KW of power, having that much energy being focused on a cutting edge in aluminum at 25K RPM is again unimaginable. Cray cray / amazing.

    @jowens909 Serious props to you for programming one of those, Serious beast amongst beasts yet incredibly accurate. /

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    cray-cray-spindle-mag-3-makino.jpg

    This is what the MAG 3 spindle goes into ^^^ …

    Can't find torque curve for this but still how on earth they 'Fit" 133KW into that maximum torque; mainly for monolithic aerospace structures in Aluminum.



    Everything focused on serious MRRs, But some beautiful contouring / swarf milling along those steep walls (in the video) ^^^

    Probably if you flick through the Kaydon bearing catalogues you could find $20K worth of bearings. I'm sure Makino has better buying power for Japanese equivalents.

    No doubt Makino have their own special cooling and lubrication system for that spindle.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________

    In context and contrast Empwoer's spindle replacement almost costs the same …

    http://selwaytool.com/templates/selw...ura_lx-160.pdf

    ^^^ This the LX-160 , spindle taken to 46K RPM has a torque of 3 N.M (Newton Meters) [11 KW], but the spindle when moved by it's linear machine can achieve circularities of 1 micron (if you need that ) The runout must be 0.00000 ---> Tends towards "Zero" to achieve that. .


    I couldn't imagine a more opposite pair of machines.



    ^^^ LX-160 doing IRONMAN helmet/ mask .
    the tech explained to me a few details about spindle replacement on the LX, i can see why it takes a ton of labor. the tolerances everything needs to be aligned and balanced to are mind blowing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    the tech explained to me a few details about spindle replacement on the LX, i can see why it takes a ton of labor. the tolerances everything needs to be aligned and balanced to are mind blowing.
    I'm not dogging you for buying the LX, you are still ahead on the game $ wise.

    I know you are looking for another machine for larger parts and I still wonder whether you could have bought a Makino DA300 for large and small parts but still $ wise you are ahead of the game.

    ____________________________


    The other half of my life has been in the horse business and I can tell you there is not one hustle on this planet that was not thought of by an Irish horse trader or dealer first (usually at least by 150 years lol). There is an old "Horse adage / saying" 'Easily bought , hard to keep"... 'Cuz the horse can't tell you what's wrong with him and the dealer hides most of the vet history of the horse and it may take a few weeks for whatever drugs the dealer injected the horse with to cover up various 'mechanical" chronic problems.

    Sounds like Selway and Matsuura are really on it though, so that's really nice to have a group that WILL work with you and get your second hand purchase exactly as they should be NICE ! [That's not easy to swing in other cases.].

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I'm not dogging you for buying the LX, you are still ahead on the game $ wise.

    I know you are looking for another machine for larger parts and I still wonder whether you could have bought a Makino DA300 for large and small parts but still $ wise you are ahead of the game.

    ____________________________


    The other half of my life has been in the horse business and I can tell you there is not one hustle on this planet that was not thought of by an Irish horse trader or dealer first (usually at least by 150 years lol). There is an old "Horse adage / saying" 'Easily bought , hard to keep"... 'Cuz the horse can't tell you what's wrong with him and the dealer hides most of the vet history of the horse and it may take a few weeks for whatever drugs the dealer injected the horse with to cover up various 'mechanical" chronic problems.

    Sounds like Selway and Matsuura are really on it though, so that's really nice to have a group that WILL work with you and get your second hand purchase exactly as they should be NICE ! [That's not easy to swing in other cases.].
    we dont want to use a giant machine to do our small parts, the compressor wheels are gonna be their own separate line and the bigger machine is for completely different products. 2 spindles>1 in this scenario for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    we dont want to use a giant machine to do our small parts, the compressor wheels are gonna be their own separate line and the bigger machine is for completely different products. 2 spindles>1 in this scenario for us.
    That's what I thought, you have a need for two different work flows but if you were able to "Share" one machine the DA 300 is scarily fast and ultra precise, not as precise as your LX of course but handles a wide range of part sizes efficiently.

    But it ain't cheap.

    Some people have DA 300's that are working larger parts that clearly don't need the accuracies and precisions and surface finishes that that machine can give.


    Out of interest do you have criteria / specs for your 2nd steam machine larger work pieces ? What is too big or too small in terms of envelope ?

    Thinking in terms of the Kitamura idea / extension or would the Okuma M-460V 5 ax really nail it ? Or over kill or wrong layout of machine for what you need.

    A while back I have seen a couple of Matsuura MX-520's second hand for very good prices , but those are rare as "Peeps" like to hang onto those if they can unless they did something very strange to the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That's what I thought, you have a need for two different work flows but if you were able to "Share" one machine the DA 300 is scarily fast and ultra precise, not as precise as your LX of course but handles a wide range of part sizes efficiently.

    But it ain't cheap.

    Some people have DA 300's that are working larger parts that clearly don't need the accuracies and precisions and surface finishes that that machine can give.


    Out of interest do you have criteria / specs for your 2nd steam machine larger work pieces ? What is too big or too small in terms of envelope ?

    Thinking in terms of the Kitamura idea / extension or would the Okuma M-460V 5 ax really nail it ? Or over kill or wrong layout of machine for what you need.

    A while back I have seen a couple of Matsuura MX-520's second hand for very good prices , but those are rare as "Peeps" like to hang onto those if they can unless they did something very strange to the machine.
    yeah something like the MV460 size/capability wise would be ideal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    yeah something like the MV460 size/capability wise would be ideal.
    So the Makino DA 300 base price is roughly $425K with a LOT thrown in to make the machine functional as a package, BUT then,they (MAKINO) do things like have cyclonic mist collector ---> $17K or basic work piece probing as a separate option for $18K ish also …

    But the machine does have 2362 IPM rapids (not sure on practical limits of acceleration acc/decc there ? ).
    1968 IPM feed rates, A axis rotation rate in cut maximum 100 RPM, and C axis 150 RPM.

    DD (Direct drive) motors on A and C .

    620 mm travel on Y axis.

    For most people the Okuma M-460V 5 ax has comparable performance and accuracy for $280K ish to $320 ish …

    On the M-460 5 ax Okuma With the trunnion close to the "breast" of the machine (running parallel to the machines X axis) longer parts need to be fixtured a bit higher and need to be careful what you can really swing, but other wise hard to beat.

    The DA 300 is a bit more "Classic" for all round pretty amazing precision and form tolerances (+ mold capable) with the trunnion running through the bridge, but not everybody needs that. Long term accuracy should be pretty good on the DA 300 (but will have to see as the machine is not that old.) The Okuma M-460V 5 ax is really the older MU-400VA (with upgrades), that machine has an exceptional service life, can be pounded three shifts for years and years and years, can't speak to long term rotational accuracies (as I simply don't know.) but really solid and then some.

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    ^^^ DA 300 doing a 6 blade, 6 splitter, 12 secondary splitter in Titanium (guessing 6Al4V ) …

    Necessarily slower feed rates and spindle RPMs

    Beautiful geometry as almost a technological artifact in it's own right.

    12 hour cycle time , so does that make the impeller a $6K to $10K part ?

    (not my line of business, but wish it was lol; so you could make 80 of these and pay off the machine... ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post


    ^^^ DA 300 doing a 6 blade, 6 splitter, 12 secondary splitter in Titanium (guessing 6Al4V ) …

    Necessarily slower feed rates and spindle RPMs

    Beautiful geometry as almost a technological artifact in it's own right.

    12 hour cycle time , so does that make the impeller a $6K to $10K part ?

    (not my line of business, but wish it was lol; so you could make 80 of these and pay off the machine... ).
    sweet machine for sure, but not in our price range unfortunately

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    sweet machine for sure, but not in our price range unfortunately
    Also was hoping you could tell me something about this design of impeller … Looks really amazing what this type might be used for ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Also was hoping you could tell me something about this design of impeller … Looks really amazing what this type might be used for ?
    really hard to tell with the coolant obstructing its geometry. most likely some sort of fluid pump judging from the size.

    OT, you going to westec?

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    @OP,

    Sorry to drag the thread off topic, but what turbos and target vehicles are you looking to build wheels for?

    I'm pulling the dead tranny out of the toy car in preparation of building a new one. I have an FP 68HTA turbo in it with about 50k miles and will be giving it a look over too. Hopefully no need to replace it, but one never knows. It is set up to push 24PSI with a first and second gear spike to ~26PSI so not a real easy life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    @OP,

    Sorry to drag the thread off topic, but what turbos and target vehicles are you looking to build wheels for?

    I'm pulling the dead tranny out of the toy car in preparation of building a new one. I have an FP 68HTA turbo in it with about 50k miles and will be giving it a look over too. Hopefully no need to replace it, but one never knows. It is set up to push 24PSI with a first and second gear spike to ~26PSI so not a real easy life.
    we build turbos for a LOT of different applications. we've rebuilt FP turbos before. more than welcome to send it in for a once over or rebuild if needed. pm me

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    really hard to tell with the coolant obstructing its geometry. most likely some sort of fluid pump judging from the size.

    OT, you going to westec?
    groovy-impellar-.jpg

    ^^^ Kinda looks like this, Seems really beautiful.

    Westec ? Would love to go but up to my eyeballs in sh*t right now and not super likely to be able to break free for any such excursions until 2020 , but you never know

    WESTEC 2019 - Event Map

    Exhibitor list and floor plan … Lots going on there , amazing.

    Some of these trade shows I find a bit overwhelming, feeding frenzy / zoo environment, but looks like a good one / fun!


    Event Schedule - WESTEC | A Manufacturing Technology Series Event

    ^^^ New venue for Long beach seems promising / interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    groovy-impellar-.jpg

    ^^^ Kinda looks like this, Seems really beautiful.

    Westec ? Would love to go but up to my eyeballs in sh*t right now and not super likely to be able to break free for any such excursions until 2020 , but you never know

    WESTEC 2019 - Event Map

    Exhibitor list and floor plan … Lots going on there , amazing.

    Some of these trade shows I find a bit overwhelming, feeding frenzy / zoo environment, but looks like a good one / fun!


    Event Schedule - WESTEC | A Manufacturing Technology Series Event

    ^^^ New venue for Long beach seems promising / interesting.
    bossman and i will be there to look at the next machine hopefully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    groovy-impellar-.jpg

    ^^^ Kinda looks like this, Seems really beautiful.

    Westec ? Would love to go but up to my eyeballs in sh*t right now and not super likely to be able to break free for any such excursions until 2020 , but you never know

    WESTEC 2019 - Event Map

    Exhibitor list and floor plan … Lots going on there , amazing.

    Some of these trade shows I find a bit overwhelming, feeding frenzy / zoo environment, but looks like a good one / fun!


    Event Schedule - WESTEC | A Manufacturing Technology Series Event

    ^^^ New venue for Long beach seems promising / interesting.
    clear out your PM box


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