What's new
What's new

Tool Length on Fadal issues and need help

drom68

Cast Iron
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Location
VA, USA
New to cnc and picked up a 1999 Fadal 3016 with 4,xxx hrs. Nice machine.

Issue that I am having is setting the tool length to the fixture. Actually there are two issues, the second being how to delete a fixture. The previous owner had a fixture as No 1, I don't know how to delete it.

I have set a tool in the spindle, jog to set length (off-sets on diameter are good) and then go to program the job. I used a .500 gauge block and tried both + and - offsets.


I have used both G55 and E2 for the fixture offset. Handjam Z+0.500 G0 G55 after setting the X/Y axis. The Fadal is set on Format 2.

Z axis goes way down below the fixture height, like down below the surface plane of the table if I let it.

I cannot figure out what I am doing wrong on this particular tool off-set.

I tried endmills and drill. Both have been a serious pain.

To wrap it up.
-How do you delete a fixture
-How do you set the tool length with a gauge block and make it stop above the fixture

Thanks,
 
How are you setting the tool offset? There's a command "set length", I think it's #5 in one of the main menus, that should just put the current Z value into the tool's length offset. Then with a 0 in your G5x fixture offset, your Z zero is the top of your gauge block.

I use the 3" height of a 123 block as a gauge, and since my vises are 2.875" tall, if I put -.125 in for the Z offset in a fixture, Z zero is the base of the vise.

Deleting the fixture offset should be as simple as putting zeros in for all values unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean. If you mean it has a home position that isn't cold start position, you can just enter "SETH" after a cold start and that will reset that.
 
Here's another way to do it: Don't put a number into the Z fixture offset. Leave it set to zero for all fixtures. Instead, use the tool length offsets (menu 6) exclusively.

So then how do you deal with the height of different fixtures, without setting all your tool length offsets all over again? Simple. Zero all your tools to the table and use the "mass modify" function to move all the tools at once for the specific fixture you're using, and use an unused tool position to keep track of where they are.

Here's an example. I've got a 21 tool ATC. I zero tools 1 through 21 to the table using the tool setting utility (option 4) in the tools offset menu (menu 6). I put zero into tool offset 22. Now I want to make something in my vise. The stepped jaws of my vise are 5.900 above the table (I know this because I machined them there). I hit space, 6 to enter the tools offset menu, select option 3 for mass modify, starting tool 1, ending tool 22, offset 5.900. Presto, all my tools got raised 5.900, and this number is recorded in tool offset 22.

Later I want to make something in a different fixture that sits 3.0763 above the table (these are really numbers I use by the way). I hit space, 6 to enter the tools offset menu. I see by tool 22's value that I've got everything set at 5.900. I then hit 3 for mass modify, starting tool 1, ending tool 22, -5.900. Presto, they're all back to the table and there's a zero in 22. Then I do it again and raise them all to 3.0763. I'm now ready to use the other fixture.
 
Here's another way to do it: Don't put a number into the Z fixture offset. Leave it set to zero for all fixtures. Instead, use the tool length offsets (menu 6) exclusively.

So then how do you deal with the height of different fixtures, without setting all your tool length offsets all over again? Simple. Zero all your tools to the table and use the "mass modify" function to move all the tools at once for the specific fixture you're using, and use an unused tool position to keep track of where they are.

Here's an example. I've got a 21 tool ATC. I zero tools 1 through 21 to the table using the tool setting utility (option 4) in the tools offset menu (menu 6). I put zero into tool offset 22. Now I want to make something in my vise. The stepped jaws of my vise are 5.900 above the table (I know this because I machined them there). I hit space, 6 to enter the tools offset menu, select option 3 for mass modify, starting tool 1, ending tool 22, offset 5.900. Presto, all my tools got raised 5.900, and this number is recorded in tool offset 22.

Later I want to make something in a different fixture that sits 3.0763 above the table (these are really numbers I use by the way). I hit space, 6 to enter the tools offset menu. I see by tool 22's value that I've got everything set at 5.900. I then hit 3 for mass modify, starting tool 1, ending tool 22, -5.900. Presto, they're all back to the table and there's a zero in 22. Then I do it again and raise them all to 3.0763. I'm now ready to use the other fixture.
In doing this, do you keep E1 at 0 Z offset (just accommodate using tool length) and then for E2-48 use fixture offsets to accommodate height variances between fixtures?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
In doing this, do you keep E1 at 0 Z offset (just accommodate using tool length) and then for E2-48 use fixture offsets to accommodate height variances between fixtures?

No, all my fixture offsets have their Z offsets set to zero. When I go to use a different fixture, I go into the tool offsets menu and move all the tools to the height of the new fixture.

When I got my first Fadal (2003) and had to learn all this stuff, I tried messing with the Z in the fixture offsets table. Like the original poster above, it behaved in ways that were strange to me, and I couldn't make sense out of it. After a few near crashes, I went back to controlling Z offsets entirely in the tool menu.

It sounds like the second poster, Isaac338, has made sense out of the Z's in the fixture offsets. That's all fine and well, but I'm set in my ways and happy with the way I'm doing it and don't see any point in changing. It makes sense to me and it's simple to do. I was just tossing it out there as an alternative way to do it, not promoting it. The original poster should do it the way that makes the most sense to him.
 
No, all my fixture offsets have their Z offsets set to zero. When I go to use a different fixture, I go into the tool offsets menu and move all the tools to the height of the new fixture.

When I first got the machine (2003), I tried messing with the Z in the fixture offsets table. Like the original poster above, it behaved in ways that were strange to me, and I couldn't make sense out of it. After a few near crashes, I went back to controlling Z offsets entirely in the tool menu.

It sounds like the second poster, Isaac338, has made sense out of the Z's in the fixture offsets. That's all fine and well, but I'm set in my ways and happy with the way I'm doing it and don't see any point in changing. It makes sense to me and it's simple to do. I was just tossing it out there as an alternative way to do it, not promoting it. The original poster should do it the way that makes the most sense to him.

That is my exact issue, I just don't understand its logic despite much effort to do so.

I asked because it seems beneficial to me to have minor individual Z height differences available between offsets in case you have to touch up a soft jaw or something.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
Doesn’t zfmax’s method have to assume you only have one fixture? Or several the exact same height?
I really like the simplicity of the method, but I think the intent of the fixture offsets was to account for multiple fixture heights.

It would certainly make your head hurt less to machine all the jaws on the machine and have them all the same


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
No, all my fixture offsets have their Z offsets set to zero. When I go to use a different fixture, I go into the tool offsets menu and move all the tools to the height of the new fixture.

When I got my first Fadal (2003) and had to learn all this stuff, I tried messing with the Z in the fixture offsets table. Like the original poster above, it behaved in ways that were strange to me, and I couldn't make sense out of it. After a few near crashes, I went back to controlling Z offsets entirely in the tool menu.

It sounds like the second poster, Isaac338, has made sense out of the Z's in the fixture offsets. That's all fine and well, but I'm set in my ways and happy with the way I'm doing it and don't see any point in changing. It makes sense to me and it's simple to do. I was just tossing it out there as an alternative way to do it, not promoting it. The original poster should do it the way that makes the most sense to him.

Your method seems like it would work, but won't work if you have multiple vises with different offsets or whatever. And it seems like it adds steps to changing tools in the middle of a job.

If you use the fixture offset your tools are always set to the same Z height relative to the table, and the Z offset is just the difference from that height to your fixture zero. If you use a 123 block as a gauge and your fixture is less than 3" from the table, you need a negative Z offset; if it's more than 3" from the table, the Z offset is positive. If it's 3" exactly, your Z offset is zero.
 
Your method seems like it would work, but won't work if you have multiple vises with different offsets or whatever. And it seems like it adds steps to changing tools in the middle of a job.

If you use the fixture offset your tools are always set to the same Z height relative to the table, and the Z offset is just the difference from that height to your fixture zero. If you use a 123 block as a gauge and your fixture is less than 3" from the table, you need a negative Z offset; if it's more than 3" from the table, the Z offset is positive. If it's 3" exactly, your Z offset is zero.
I agree. But if I have a Z fixture offset >4.0" the head travels from tool change height (CS z0.0) up and then limits out.

It's like the controller reads the Ez offset, adjusts that plane, then applies tool length. I wish it would make that plane adjustment after calculating the fixture and TL offsets.

Aaron Gough has a pretty good tool setting routine but I'm not yet advanced enough to understand how to implement it.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
How are you setting the tool offset? There's a command "set length", I think it's #5 in one of the main menus, that should just put the current Z value into the tool's length offset. Then with a 0 in your G5x fixture offset, your Z zero is the top of your gauge block.

Tried that and cannot get the tool to the height I want. That is the frustration behind my post.

Here's another way to do it: Don't put a number into the Z fixture offset. Leave it set to zero for all fixtures. Instead, use the tool length offsets (menu 6) exclusively.

Ultimately that is what I ended up doing. I actually followed isaac338 guidance on changing a fixture to all zero's which gave me the idea of changing the fixture I am using to zero on the Z.

This worked out, but I am still curious as to why I could not do it the other way, plus I would like to have the "Z" for all fixtures without having to do a mass modification.

Thanks,
 
I agree. But if I have a Z fixture offset >4.0" the head travels from tool change height (CS z0.0) up and then limits out.

It's like the controller reads the Ez offset, adjusts that plane, then applies tool length. I wish it would make that plane adjustment after calculating the fixture and TL offsets.

Aaron Gough has a pretty good tool setting routine but I'm not yet advanced enough to understand how to implement it.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


Sounds like you're setting the tool lengths with a fixture offset applied (I always SETCS before setting a tool height) and/or your post is applying the tool length compensation wrong. My post outputs a toolchange, starts the spindle, sets the fixture offset, and then issues a G43 Z1.1 H4 (or similar), which sets the length offset and then rapids down to Z1.1. What's your code look like?
 
Sounds like you're setting the tool lengths with a fixture offset applied (I always SETCS before setting a tool height) and/or your post is applying the tool length compensation wrong. My post outputs a toolchange, starts the spindle, sets the fixture offset, and then issues a G43 Z1.1 H4 (or similar), which sets the length offset and then rapids down to Z1.1. What's your code look like?
I'm out for a while, Ill PM when I return.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
I agree. But if I have a Z fixture offset >4.0" the head travels from tool change height (CS z0.0) up and then limits out.

It's like the controller reads the Ez offset, adjusts that plane, then applies tool length. I wish it would make that plane adjustment after calculating the fixture and TL offsets.

Aaron Gough has a pretty good tool setting routine but I'm not yet advanced enough to understand how to implement it.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

On my machine CS position is 16”(20” above table) with 4” remaining +Z (my machine has 20” Z Travel that starts 4” off the table)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
On my machine CS position is 16”(20” above table) with 4” remaining +Z (my machine has 20” Z Travel that starts 4” off the table)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Same for mine. If you program a Z fixture offset >4.0" does it travel up and limit out before the program begins?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
YouTube

YouTube

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I had watched those videos prior to getting the cnc and again after to set up the tool heights and fixtures.

It still didn't come together as mentioned in other post and video. Plus, I am know looking at how to use the multiple fixtures for different jobs or same job different feature.
 
Your method seems like it would work, but won't work if you have multiple vises with different offsets or whatever.

Took me a bit to figure out what you're getting at, but I think I understand. You're probably accessing multiple fixtures of different heights from within a single program, right? If that's the case, you are absolutely correct, the method falls apart.

But if all the fixtures you access in a given program are the same height, it works great. Setting up the tool heights for the new program takes just seconds.
 








 
Back
Top