Tooling up, right or left hand, and best U-drill?, etc

SND · May 25, 2018

Might as well try to squeeze it all in this one...

Are you guys mostly running right or left hand tooling for your turning/threading and such? or both and, why?(no sub, just 1 spindle)
It's looking to me like using all right hand tooling, M03, to throw the chips down should be fine? its a roller way machine, 1" stick tools. No messing around with reversing to drill either eh?

What should I be looking for regarding holding small drills/spot drills/taps, a few straight shank + sleeves to hold ER 16 and ER 32 to get going since I already got tons of those collets?
I noticed some gang blocks use 2-3 tools on one position so that'll be on the list asap.

Should I expect to need one of them floating tap holders or do lathes usually rigid tap pretty good? I've had no issues on the mill yet, but I'm thinking a lathe is a lot more picky about alignment.

U-drills. I'm leaning toward sandvik Coroldrill 880's since I got a good rep, I gotta push a 23-24mm size about 4" deep in duplex, then another one about 17mm that takes it to 6.5" deep. Anything else to look at that is cost effective or perhaps better?

Probably gonna make my own bar puller, the designs I'm looking at look beyond simple for the ridiculous amount of $ they want.

Should have the 65mm collet chuck sorted early next week waiting on pricing(damn the dollar exchange sure sucks right now...), and some extra soft jaws, maybe a case of underwear too, the camo colored ones...

Gotta look into a mist extractor for it too, is Mistaway with the after filter the best? price seems alright.
Carbide bars... gonna need a bunch more of those too, does anyone make shorter shank stubby ones that don't need to be cut off to fit in a Turret? almost leaning toward tuned bars now so that it just stays in its tool block and always at the same length? I never tried a tuned bar, well, not a good one anyway...

anything else I'm forgetting?
thanks.

Comatose · May 26, 2018

You'll need both right and left hand tooling eventually, especially without a subspindle. Sometimes backwards is the only way to get against a back-side shoulder in one operation. If you're bar pulling without a sub you do everything you can do be complete in one op.

Groove-turn tools are also really useful, and double as my parting tool in my standard load-out, but it looks like you're probably running bigger than that.

SND · May 26, 2018

Ahh yes, that makes sense. I'll definitely need to improve my parting/grooving tool game.
Is getting coolant into the cut much harder with it all upside down? maybe I need to look into special/improved coolant nozzles?
Thought about spindle liners now too, looks like many like the trustycook type so I'll see about getting a few common sizes.

Pete Deal · May 26, 2018

I was thinking plastic spindle liners too but saw some posts here where some guys were using some spindle donuts. I stole this idea. I bought a bag of big O rings from mcmaster and keep a bar of 2" black delrin around. Just wrote a program to make a big bushing with an O ring groove on the od whatever bore. I Keep a big piece of broom stick around to tap them into the back of the spindle spaced out about 12 or 14" apart and this seems to work great. I didn't but ought to put some lines on the stick to take the thinking about spacing. Oh, and a big 60 degree chamfer on the back side of the bore.

litlerob1 · May 26, 2018

Should I expect to need one of them floating tap holders or do lathes usually rigid tap pretty good? I've had no issues on the mill yet, but I'm thinking a lathe is a lot more picky about alignment.

If the software has rigid tap, you shouldn't need a Floating tap holder. In a Lathe with live tools alignment is always an issue, but with parts bigger than 1" usually not a big deal ("usually" is relative).

Personally, I run mostly right hand tools, so upside down behind the part. That is the way most CNC Lathes are designed to run (again relative words like "most"). But that isn't why I run them that way, it's mostly just because sometimes I use them on the Manual Lathe too. Iscar has about every GD Grooving tool you could think of, upside own, right side up, Chuck clearance, Angled.....

I think U-drill is a good one, very versatile. But there are others that do different things and have their place too.

Single point Threading is really the only Tools that need to be thought through when considering orientation. Spindle forward (M3) needs a right hand tool to make a right hand Thread, but sometimes you gotta do some funny stuff to get the Thread you want. So I have about every variation and orientation of Stick holders and Bars you can get.

R

Bobw · May 26, 2018

I USED to be of the mind that it didn't matter... I always ran right handers so
that the spindle didn't have to reverse and the chips would fall down...

Then I had to ran 20 of these..

I did some preliminary cutting, and then sawed 70 lbs of material out..
I wasn't giving up 1400 free pounds of 17-4 by turning it all to chips.

I thought I was damn near going to rip the turret off.. That was some nasty interrupted
cutting.. You could see it moving..

Went to a lead angle tool, which you can see and also left handed.. Night and day difference.

She's a big box machine... And looking at it afterwards, width of the ways pulling up, 2 half inch
strips.. Pushing down, almost 10 inches of total way width. And cast iron isn't all that great of
a material when you are pulling on it.. Its a lot happier when you are pushing on it..

Switching to left handers seemed to increase accuracy also.. And its easier to change the insert....

As for the round tools, staight shank ER's get a lot of use, 16s and 32s for me.. They also make
bushings that hold R8 and 5C collets, those are damn handy and they don't stick out as far,
and that big stupid ER32 nut doesn't get in the way of the coolant getting to the tool tip.

Nerdlinger · May 26, 2018

SND - L v R is a trade off - Upside down R has better chip control but right side up L pushes down on the turret ways instead of pulling up. Like Bob said - especially nice/important for heavy cuts. Like Comatose said you’ll probably end up with both eventually. I typically run L tooling but have a job that leaves a heavy burr after roughing and following up with another L tool for finishing just wiped the burr over more so I now use a R hand finisher and that change in direction rips the burr right off. L is also easier to see/change the insert. Good luck!

Jashley73 · May 26, 2018

The old "RH tools being upside down lets the chips fall straight down" argument is BS. Change the feeds, change the insert's chip-breaker, change material and the chips will fly in a different direction. The only tools where it could *potentially* make a difference, is on grooving/parting tools, but even then, with good coolant aim, that's a non-issue there too.

BOBW's example of left-hand tooling being more rigid is 100% correct. When using LH tooling on a typical turning center (turret away from operator) the cutting force compresses the axes, basically making the machine stiffer. If you used RH tools, you're trying to pull the turret & cross-slide off the X-axis ways, which trys to pull the saddle off the Z-axis ways.

Even on a linear-rail turning center, this is still all true. When using LH tools, you push the rails back into the casting. When using RH tools, you try to pull the rails OFF the castings, which are simply held in-place with bolts. Move the Z-axis to a place where the bearing trucks are between bolts, and then take a big heavy interrupted-facing cut like in BOBW's example. I bet if you could see down there, you'd see the rails flex as the interrupted cutting pressure tried to rip the rails off the castings...

Now, the argument about reversing the spindle is true. With all RH tools, you never have to stop the spindle. If you're a lazy programmer and use G96, then this isn't as much as an issue. Point being, as a LH tool finishes a cut, and returns to G28 U0 to index the turret, the spindle will ramp down as G96 is almost always still active. At this point, stopping & reversing the spindle isn't as much of an issue, as the spindle is already at a low RPM at this point.

Regarding best indexable drill - Sanvik 880 is a good choice, but I think the Seco Perfomax is a better drill (even if by a small margin) and I've had customers swear by them for drilling stainless.

litlerob1 · May 26, 2018

Just to clarify; What is a "lazy programmer" sounds a little condescending.

To be honest I have argued this Turret compression thing to the point that when it comes up, I don't even contribute to the conversation. The Mfing things were not designed to run with Left hand Tools regularly. Before everyone gets all handsy on it, I have asked people with the opinion that one is better than the other and MOST have no practical experience-it just sounds right (I agree BTW, it does sound right). But up until this very Thread, no one except Bob has ever had personal experience (at least none that I care to listen to), with being eye witness to the effect.

FWIW I have taken some very gnarly massive interrupted cuts with the Tool oriented down and it was fine. Just saying that until now, no one has offered anything more than theory.

R

yardbird · May 26, 2018

litlerob1 said:
Just to clarify; What is a "lazy programmer" sounds a little condescending.

To be honest I have argued this Turret compression thing to the point that when it comes up, I don't even contribute to the conversation. The Mfing things were not designed to run with Left hand Tools regularly. Before everyone gets all handsy on it, I have asked people with the opinion that one is better than the other and MOST have no practical experience-it just sounds right (I agree BTW, it does sound right). But up until this very Thread, no one except Bob has ever had personal experience (at least none that I care to listen to), with being eye witness to the effect.

FWIW I have taken some very gnarly massive interrupted cuts with the Tool oriented down and it was fine. Just saying that until now, no one has offered anything more than theory.

R

I've witnessed the turret lifting with my own eyes same as Bob. Believe what you want I guess.

Brent

litlerob1 · May 27, 2018

yardbird said:
I've witnessed the turret lifting with my own eyes same as Bob. Believe what you want I guess.

Brent

I'm not disagreeing at all. I was just pointing out that apparently you and Bob are the only people on Earth who have actually witnessed it happen, while it was happening.

Now that I've said that 10,000 people are going to testify.

adama · May 27, 2018

^ Think about it your going to unload the turret to some degree at the least, that is going to cause movment, on the other hand just adding a bit more force in the same plane as gravity is going to have a lot less net deflection do to how materials yield and simply putting loads in the same direction.

That said, im a believer in parting upside down, my experience that helps things not jam up. Upsside down also does not have the impact on coolant most think, IMHO spraying it on-top of the forming chips not achieving much, i prefer to always jet it up from the underneath bettwen the tool - work interface.

SND · May 27, 2018

I can definitely see boxways making a difference with M04, I've seen it with manual machines when the whole carriage jumps 1/8" under interrupted cuts, see the thing with boxways is they need adjustment once in a while, not just every 60-70years... I've never seen anyone do it on manual machines other than myself and even I neglect it a bit on my machines. I bet its no better with boxway CNC owners, but even so yes, there isn't much holding most boxways on when pulling on them. I wasn't sure if it was as big a deal with roller ways, at least they stay tight but perhaps best to be pushing too for roughing cuts on a smaller machine. Promotional video for the machine I'm getting shows it all running RH, M03.

I'll see about getting a few of each, its not like I use that many style holders for my stuff, yet. Probably easier to change inserts on a LH. For the threading I might stick to vardex, I can get those inserts 1-2 at a time for the pitches I need instead of a whole box every time, just need a bigger 1" stick. Internal bar is 3/4" I think and would do most my needs too.

I'll start another thread about the boring bars...

Trying to get all that stuff ordered in the next 2-3 days.

HuFlungDung · May 27, 2018

litlerob1 said:
Just to clarify; What is a "lazy programmer" sounds a little condescending.

To be honest I have argued this Turret compression thing to the point that when it comes up, I don't even contribute to the conversation. The Mfing things were not designed to run with Left hand Tools regularly. Before everyone gets all handsy on it, I have asked people with the opinion that one is better than the other and MOST have no practical experience-it just sounds right (I agree BTW, it does sound right). But up until this very Thread, no one except Bob has ever had personal experience (at least none that I care to listen to), with being eye witness to the effect.

FWIW I have taken some very gnarly massive interrupted cuts with the Tool oriented down and it was fine. Just saying that until now, no one has offered anything more than theory.

R

The biggest clue could be the design of the turret. If the turret takes 1" shank square tools, then you buy what works, and that would be left hand tools so that the cutting edge is at center height and not an inch below. If the turret is jacked up an inch so it takes RH tools, then you're still not going to switch handedness on a whim. Or how are guys seeing the handedness as optional?

SND · May 27, 2018

HuFlungDung said:
The biggest clue could be the design of the turret. If the turret takes 1" shank square tools, then you buy what works, and that would be left hand tools so that the cutting edge is at center height and not an inch below. If the turret is jacked up an inch so it takes RH tools, then you're still not going to switch handedness on a whim. Or how are guys seeing the handedness as optional?

You know.... I was just wondering about that while looking at optional holders and what fits where on the turret drawing and I got to thinking about the center height and if there was some trick to being able to use either one? I always assumed they could be set up to do either one but never ran or tooled up one until now. I know RH M03 works for now since its in the vids.

Bobw · May 27, 2018

HuFlungDung said:
The biggest clue could be the design of the turret. If the turret takes 1" shank square tools, then you buy what works, and that would be left hand tools so that the cutting edge is at center height and not an inch below. If the turret is jacked up an inch so it takes RH tools, then you're still not going to switch handedness on a whim. Or how are guys seeing the handedness as optional?

2" pocket.. Tool goes on the bottom, insert facing up, clamp on the top..... OR tool goes on the top, insert
facing down, clamp on the bottom. Aren't 99% of them like that?

Top to bottom, right hander, empty pocket, left hander.

david n · May 27, 2018

I run 99.9% RH. The only LH holders are used upside down to cut away from the chuck. Never had accuracy issues. Never had the turret lift. Chips always fall where I want them...............down into the conveyor.

ER 16 and ER 32 here.

Drills? Eh............Ultradex. Nice quality and cheap. Don't feel so bad when you wipe one out.

I bough a Dunham bar puller set for pullin'. Yeah over priced. I made all my pullers over 2" Ø. Next time I'd jut make them all.

HuFlungDung · May 27, 2018

Bobw said:
2" pocket.. Tool goes on the bottom, insert facing up, clamp on the top..... OR tool goes on the top, insert
facing down, clamp on the bottom. Aren't 99% of them like that?

Top to bottom, right hander, empty pocket, left hander.

Mine has 1" pockets with a couple of wedge locks built into the top of each pocket. So no option to turn the toolholder over and get the edge on center height.

It's pretty common sense to have the cutting forces going down to the bed for heavy cutting. We might often get away with breaking that rule for ordinary turning. Even I do, when I use a gooseneck holder to thread with, so I can thread towards the chuck. No way I want to be cutting threads the other direction, too much fooling around getting a start groove in every part.

You can also buy LH insert drills so that you don't get caught forgetting to reverse the spindle for drilling. I did that once with a RH drill, it's easy on restart to press the Spindle Forward button without thinking about it.

Bobw · May 27, 2018

HuFlungDung said:
Mine has 1" pockets with a couple of wedge locks built into the top of each pocket. So no option to turn the toolholder over and get the edge on center height.

There are 2 old rusted Tree POS's out here like that.. I remember the "goose neck" thing..
I had never seen a turret like that before.

I think if I ever had to actually use them, I would have pulled the turret, slapped
it up on the mill and fixed that problem, at least in a couple of positions, so that
I could use any threading tool I wanted without having to jump through hoops trying
to find (and then PAY for) a goose neck holder.

zak300sy · May 27, 2018

litlerob1;3181169 FWIW I have taken some very gnarly massive interrupted cuts with the Tool oriented down and it was fine. Just saying that until now said:
Me too. I'd be completely in your camp on this except for this one bit of personal experience:

Face grooving can be an issue if you're not pushing down on the linear guides, even on a simpler 2 axis lathes with linear guides.

We've got a bunch of Mazak Integrexes. When we purchased our first couple of Capto C6 machines, we ended up de-tuning some existing programs because of chatter when face grooving. Buying other handed holders/tooling so force is pushing down on guide ways solved the issue. Same speeds/feeds/insert/manufacturer.

Tooling up, right or left hand, and best U-drill?, etc

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