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    Default Touching off small tools questions.

    Hello.

    I have a job that is going to use Harvey endmills in the .02 to .01 inch range. How do you guys touch these things off. I am guessing using the Renishaw tool setter will not work. Thank you.

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    Precision plastic shim stock, do a little testing of drag when between tool and stock, come to a consistent "pull force" (very little) for your reference.

    Or go expensive ($$$$) high tech with a laser tool setter like the Blum:

    BLUM laser measuring systems for CNC machining centres

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    We use the Blum Znano or Zpico tool setters. The straight plunge action works great with small tools. Are you using collet chucks or something else like shrink? Do you have access to an optical comparator? The .020" would probably be ok on the Renishaw, the .010" not so sure. Something like this with light spring pressure could be helpful:

    https://www.amazon.com/Lyndex-ZERO-S.../dp/B00BPYUK0K

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    I have always used a 1" gauge block for .020 and 1/64 cutters. Takes a good "feel" but with anything that small, just take your time. The second you feel any resistance trying to slide the block under lift it .0001 and call it set.

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    I use a piece of paper, I wet about a 4x4 piece with coolant then let it dry, the wrinkles in the paper give some warning you are getting close and when it pinches you are about .002 high.

    How about one of these? they have some nice looking stuff, I think they make it in Idaho.


    Touch Off Gage 52-000 - Edge Technology

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    Hi there,
    I work for Renishaw testing tool setters, including small diameter tools. What system are you using?
    0.01" diameter end mills would be fine on my machine, on a modern tool setter (TS27R, OTS, RTS, Primo LTS, APCA-45 etc.), unless it was exceptionally long and slender.
    Obviously systems vary so it is worth trying it out at a slower feedrate first, especially if it is an expensive tool. On Fanuc you would do this by changing #102 (FIRST TOUCH FEEDRATE) in O9750 settings macro, then recalibrate the tool setter.
    Another way would be to use our non-contact NC4 laser tool setting system, they're great for tools down to 0.0004" diameter (yes, that is supposed to be three zeroes after the point!) depending on the system specified.
    Regards,

    Matt
    Test and Applications Development Team Lead

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizer View Post
    I use a piece of paper, I wet about a 4x4 piece with coolant then let it dry, the wrinkles in the paper give some warning you are getting close and when it pinches you are about .002 high.

    How about one of these? they have some nice looking stuff, I think they make it in Idaho.


    Touch Off Gage 52-000 - Edge Technology
    Thats what I use for very small drills and endmills. I have never broken a tool or missed a z height.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    One second...

    %
    O09009(LENGTH ONLY SLOW)
    (CAN BE SET TO SIMPLE CALL)
    (TOOL TO SET NEEDS TO BE IN SPINDLE)
    (ALLOWS SINGLE TOOL TO BE FEED SLOW SO NO EDITS TO MAIN SOFTWARE)
    (TYPICALLY FOR SMALL DIAMETER TOOLS)
    #20=#3026


    N138
    (CHECK PROBING OPTION)
    #179= 1 / 25.4
    IF [ #4006 EQ 20 ] GOTO1
    IF [ #4006 EQ 70 ] GOTO1
    #179= 1
    N1
    G28 G91 Z0
    G49
    G90
    #174= 0
    M98 P9799
    G103 P1
    #27= #5021 - #5041
    #30= #5022 - #5042
    #31= #5023 - #5043
    #3004= 0
    G00 X [ #167 - #27 ] Y [ #168 - #30 ]
    G65 P9855 (OTS FLASHON)
    G103 P1
    #3004= 2
    M79 G31 Z [ - [ [ #30003.036 - 12.7 ] * #179 ] - #31 ] F [ 200. * #179 ] (ADJUST F IN MM STOPS 1 INCH FROM Z STROKE) (storm)
    #14= 0.5 (RESET COUNTER)
    WH [ #11017 NE 0 ] DO1 (WAIT FOR STYLUS SEATED) (storm)
    IF [ #14 LT 30. ] GOTO30 (MOVE UP TO 15MM OFF)
    #3000= 92 (UNEXPECTED SURFACE FOUND)
    N30
    G01 Z [ #5063 + [ #14 * #179 ] ] F [ 2032. * #179 ] (ADJUST #14 BACK OFF STEP)
    #14= #14 + 0.5
    END1
    G103 P1
    #28= #5043 - [ 10 * #179 ]
    #32= #5043 + [ 10 * #179 ]
    M79 G31 Z#28 F [ 30 * #179 ]
    G04 P160 (M98 P9854)
    G01 Z#32 F [ 2032. * #179 ]
    #3004= 0
    #8= #5063 + #31 - #163
    #[ 2000 + #20 ]= #8
    #[ 2200 + #20 ]= 0
    #6= #6 + [ #5043 - #5063 ] (ADD Z DEEP FROM DISK FACE)
    G103 P1
    M05
    G91 G28 Z0
    G90
    M99


    %

    Got that from Renishaw for 2020 Haas vf2 ss. We use this for anything about under .025" diameter, even use it with a .012" diameter crazyflex drill at .59 reach just fine. COpy inot 9000 programs and use alias M code (assuming you have spare Mcodes?)

    Should go without saying, but please verify on your machine first.

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    I use a 1/4" gage pin, broken end mill shank, to touch off my tools, and have done many .005"-.02" end mills with no problems. Start low and raise the tool .0001" at a time until the pin just rolls under it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plutoniumsalmon View Post
    Hello.

    I have a job that is going to use Harvey endmills in the .02 to .01 inch range. How do you guys touch these things off. I am guessing using the Renishaw tool setter will not work. Thank you.
    We use down to .012 end mills and ball mills. Touch off on the Renishaw tool setter. Standard settings. Never broken one yet (famous last words?)

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    Just ran the normal probing cycle. Seems to have worked

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    Quote Originally Posted by plutoniumsalmon View Post
    Hello.

    I have a job that is going to use Harvey endmills in the .02 to .01 inch range. How do you guys touch these things off. I am guessing using the Renishaw tool setter will not work. Thank you.
    I just use the standard Renishaw tool setter, with the standard touchoff cycle. Works perfectly.

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    For those setting tools with the spindle stopped, you do realize when you run the spindle at high rpm's, the spindle grows, not talking about heat here. Unless your control has an enlongation parameter you will have to take that into consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Hi there,
    I work for Renishaw testing tool setters, including small diameter tools. What system are you using?
    0.01" diameter end mills would be fine on my machine, on a modern tool setter (TS27R, OTS, RTS, Primo LTS, APCA-45 etc.), unless it was exceptionally long and slender.
    Obviously systems vary so it is worth trying it out at a slower feedrate first, especially if it is an expensive tool. On Fanuc you would do this by changing #102 (FIRST TOUCH FEEDRATE) in O9750 settings macro, then recalibrate the tool setter.
    Another way would be to use our non-contact NC4 laser tool setting system, they're great for tools down to 0.0004" diameter (yes, that is supposed to be three zeroes after the point!) depending on the system specified.
    Regards,

    Matt
    Test and Applications Development Team Lead
    Yea this guy is right, done 0.02 carbide drills with the RTS or the OTS system and never had issues. If you're worried just run a slower feed on the touch off cycle. I'd trust a renishaw toolsetter over the gage block or paper method any day with something that small

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    For those setting tools with the spindle stopped, you do realize when you run the spindle at high rpm's, the spindle grows, not talking about heat here. Unless your control has an enlongation parameter you will have to take that into consideration.
    The tool setter stylus also gets a little dip worn in the middle, which makes small tools touch off longer than they should. After a while I need to drop small endmills a thou or two to match up, until I decide to replace the stylus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    The tool setter stylus also gets a little dip worn in the middle, which makes small tools touch off longer than they should. After a while I need to drop small endmills a thou or two to match up, until I decide to replace the stylus.
    Wuuuuuuut? Solid carbide probe tips wear a dip in the center? Our 3 year old renishaw probe stlyi look exactly like they did when we go them. Very shiny.

    I can't imagine the wear is more than microns or smaller. Maybe I am wrong here? Seems like a problem that isn't actually a thing but I suppose it makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    Wuuuuuuut? Solid carbide probe tips wear a dip in the center? Our 3 year old renishaw probe stlyi look exactly like they did when we go them. Very shiny.

    I can't imagine the wear is more than microns or smaller. Maybe I am wrong here? Seems like a problem that isn't actually a thing but I suppose it makes sense.
    Yep. Using lots of small diameter (<.020") flat, ball, and bull endmills and drills, carbide with TIALN. With coating the tool is harder than the probe. Using tool breakage detection between tools for unattended running. When the machine was approaching four years old I was scratching my head trying to figure out why my small tools were always cutting too deep, and measured an almost .003" gouge in the center of the stylus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    The tool setter stylus also gets a little dip worn in the middle, which makes small tools touch off longer than they should. After a while I need to drop small endmills a thou or two to match up, until I decide to replace the stylus.
    This problems occurs mainly when tool setter is used for tool breakage detection. These small tools are for sure checked for breakage each time they are returned to magazine, and sometimes even during the operation. Length setting operation is not as often executed and does not cause such extensive wear of the setter.
    During the execution of Renishaw's breakage detection procedure the tool is in fact once more measured on the tool setter's surface, and the result is compared with the value stored in offset register.
    In order to overcome the problem of extensive wear of the tool setter due to breakage detection cycle, I wrote my own macro. It is based on fact, that the length of the tool is already known and stored. The tool is commanded to plunge BESIDE the setter's stylus to the depth of the stylus position less the tolerance, and then is moved towards the stylus center in X or Y in G31 move. If stylus is triggered - tool is OK, if not - tool is broken. The fact that the initial plunge is executed in rapid spares a lot time as well. The macro is attached.
    Use of laser technology for these small diameter tools is problematic: works great for tool breakage detection, but is not reliable for tool length setting. The reason is that laser tool setter are set to trigger when amount of light (energy) received on receiver falls beyond preset threshold, let's say 50%. The calibration of the setter is performed with calibration tool, which is much wider then the diameter of laser beam. The calibration tool goes into the beam and at the depth of 50 % of the beam diameter the 50% energy drop is observed and at this point the position of the beam is stored. Works great as long as measured tools are wider then the beam. But when tools smaller the beam diameter are measured, they have to penetrate deeper in order to cause the threshold energy fall. Of course each diameter and its own threshold depth.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by PROBE; 04-25-2021 at 12:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Hi there,

    Another way would be to use our non-contact NC4 laser tool setting system, they're great for tools down to 0.0004" diameter (yes, that is supposed to be three zeroes after the point!) depending on the system specified.
    Regards,

    Matt
    Test and Applications Development Team Lead
    Curious as to why the Renishaw literature states that the NC4 laser minimum diameter for measurement and tool breakage is 0.03 mm (0.0012 in) or larger. The 1.0 μm (0.0004 in) that you stated is the repeatability of measurement, which is not the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmt View Post
    Curious as to why the Renishaw literature states that the NC4 laser minimum diameter for measurement and tool breakage is 0.03 mm (0.0012 in) or larger. The 1.0 μm (0.0004 in) that you stated is the repeatability of measurement, which is not the same thing.
    Hi tmt,
    I probably shouldn't have said that because really our systems don't measure tools that small off-the-shelf without some Renishaw support. Though 0.0004in is 10m not 1m.
    30m (0.0012in) is achievable.
    Regards,

    Matt


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