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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    I really thank you guys, buying your first machine is a really stressed situation.

    When you try to configure an UMC-750 on haascnc.com, under "Product Options" it denotes that UMC-750 has rotary scales as standard but I am not sure these units on par with UMC-500/1000's scales.

    Attachment 270517

    Attachment 270517

    I also suspect that UMC-750 or 800 is around the corner

    I also learned that C axis brake is still pneumatic and HAAS upgraded the B axis brake with a hydraulic one on UMC-750.

    A side note; All UMC-750's comes TSC-Ready .

    Further more, UMC-750 and UMC-750SS has same rapid/cut feedrates [1200ipm/650ipm].



    <snip will deal with that later :-) >
    That's very nice that they roll in certain improvements over time as standard.

    HAAS sometimes gets accused (at least in the 3 axis world) of having an attractive base price but the options add up to the point where one could consider making the leap to an Okuma Genos 560V...

    As you know the inherent problems with the UMC 750 is the design of its "Frame" + long travels with relatively thin / light weight castings etc. / lack of structure.



    With the Y axis ram style fully extended to reach the far end of the table (closest to the door), the Y axis "Droops" a bit and in cut the Z axis can be extended also to twist +ve and -ve rotation about the Y axis , so for facing cuts that can result in a saw toothed step + a dish for facing passes.

    in the video ^^^ They show an interesting "Hack" / GOOD workaround with having the C axis spin and the facing pass be made closer to the "breast" of the machine/ bridge.

    If I were HAAS (a bit like what you are saying @redonion) if I was launching the successor to the 750 , maybe an 800 as you say I would attempt to make a really substantial improvement to the machine even over and above the current UMC 500 and UMC 1000. ). In terms of geometric accuracy, rigidity and bandwidth (on the control) so in essence like what you say @redonion be the BETA-Test machine for what is next and needs to be (as a test bed for other HAAS machines in the future) for the next seven to fifteen years maybe as a solid platform taking into account the needs of existing loyal HAAS customers.

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  3. #22
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    Not sure I am following cameraman here...

    I know when we were selling ours, we had a potential buyer that wanted a demo of a test cut that they had problems with. It was (as I think you say?) at the extreme of the X and Y travels (with column extended to more or less max travels). I programmed and ran it and it was 'fine' according to the potential buyer, he said theirs would not do that cut without a crapload of chatter...

    (not sure if I have a point here LoL..)

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    <Snip for clarity>



    Would your suggest me to cool the machine with AC If I can get +/- 4 degrees C's?
    ^^^ This can get very dicey...

    HAAS claim they never violate an (intended ) part's geometry and that includes their version of on control thermal compensation.

    I only know this second hand ~ But seems there is a temperature sensor(s) for the spindle and the control has a set of algorithms that basically best "Guess" likely thermal growth of the spindle in Z so what HAAS/ HAAS control does (according to certain studies) it sneakily scales and commands the spindle to back off quite substantially from a "Zero stock" condition. So you have to basically devise the means to comp final passes and surfaces (for prismatic parts that may not be that challenging)… Other MTBs that don't have sophisticated levels of thermal compensation can and will violate the stock / geometry through basic Z thermal spindle growth.


    So theoretically if you were cutting cast iron parts and the machine is of an extremely even temperature (through all it's casting) and the change in ambient temperature was minimal and you were gauging using gauges of corresponding materials and temperatures then there would be nothing to thermally compensate. (other than heat build up within the spindle, and friction in certain bearings etc.). The real problems for dimensional problems caused by thermal changes is an-isotropic / heterogeneous thermal changes I.e. different parts of the castings and bearings and ball screws etc. all thermally absorb heat at different rates. THICKER castings + insulation help with rates of gross thermal changes as well as differential thermal changes within the machine. [DMG Mori heidenhain scales with temperature sensors have the capability to keep basic axes in check...] Not sure what HAAS can similarly achieve.

    This is why synthetic granite machines can be excellent due to vibration absorption and very low coefficients of thermal expansion + low rates of thermal transfer / conductivity (almost a thermal insulator).

    Maybe with a thermal camera and mapping out your machine little by little over time you can get a better thermal understanding of what's what and make subtle changes, having data loggers for temperature at different points in your shop and recording environmental condition over a year , day by day , hour by hour can be helpful if you are doing tight tolerance work .

    Having an EVEN thermal environment laterally and vertically (floor to ceiling) would be more important than blasting the machine with "Cooling" creating greater thermal unevenness. Interesting Hardinge on some of their Super Precision lathes have artfully placed fans (in side the machine) that do a very good job.

    @redonion In Florida do you have problems and issue with reaching "Dew-point" easily given the high relative humidity ?

    I believe HAAS regards Thru-Spindle coolant as having a cooling effect on the spindle etc. how that's regulated I have no idea.

    _________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Not sure I am following cameraman here...

    I know when we were selling ours, we had a potential buyer that wanted a demo of a test cut that they had problems with. It was (as I think you say?) at the extreme of the X and Y travels (with column extended to more or less max travels). I programmed and ran it and it was 'fine' according to the potential buyer, he said theirs would not do that cut without a crapload of chatter...

    (not sure if I have a point here LoL..)
    Yeah you got it LOL... + great additional info :-)

    One good thing about HAAS there is always a ready buyer for second hand equipment.

    Even the best machines on the planet have the capability to miss their intended design objectives. AND some of the worst machines on the planet have 100% capability to meet a particular application requirement.

    So for me comparing a YASDA to a Tormach is fairly pointless in an abstract sense, as a YASDA can miss the mark (under certain circumstances, for intended design and expectations VS. a Tormach that fulfils some one's garage-full of dreams).


    So many upper draw machines are designed to certain design tolerances that must not be violated under any circumstances (hence more conservative work envelopes and travels etc. + higher density of iron and structure) whereas HAAS seems to have rolled out something regardless of immutable design tolerances that their customer's WILL buy. That's a key difference HAAS designs for their customers.

    At the same time they are creating a new market and the price point on the UMC 500 (for example) is pretty hard to beat in terms of comparative offerings in the "market place" such that it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    @Redonion- I just noticed you were / are in FL, what area? I am near Tampa so it's possible I might be able to help in person if you are still looking at the Haas UMC750..

    It appears you have still not said what mats and tolerances you are looking at doing? That will probably make a bigger difference than price. If your parts are +/-.005, the Haas will certainly do that and better, however, if you need perfect seamless blends on multiple machining ops (3-4-5 sides) you will be stuck probing everything (IMHO), or living with hitting tolerance limits...

    Feel free to PM me if you are in the area and we will talk. I did meet a member here a couple years back and met him on a Saturday at his shop to discuss some things, so I can and will follow up if you are close enough.

    edit: +/- 4 deg Celsius is ALOT... We kept our shop, with the UMC, to about +/-2-3 Fahrenheit (and humidity controlled as well), and cmm room was at +/-2 (or something close to that)
    Just read this (apologies)…

    Yeah ditto with,

    - Your parts (@redonion) "mats + tolerances' + geometry.

    - +1 on humidity control (big time) lol.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    in the video ^^^ They show an interesting "Hack" / GOOD workaround with having the C axis spin and the facing pass be made closer to the "breast" of the machine/ bridge.
    I just did that a couple weeks ago on a VMC with trunnion to make a fixture mounting plate, but with a much finer stepover. It ensures that a circle at any given radius on the machined surface will be in plane with the axis of rotation, even if the face is slightly domed or dished due to tilt axis error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    THAAS sometimes gets accused (at least in the 3 axis world) of having an attractive base price but the options add up to the point where one could consider making the leap to an Okuma Genos 560V...
    Those days are long over. Okuma tacked another $25k onto the base cost of the M560V, and their options pricing has always been heavily inflated. Just probing alone, you'll pay $10k more on the Okuma to get the exact same Renishaw hardware Haas sells. Then $8k for a 4th axis drive. $20k for the 4th itself. $12k for TSC.

    By the time all is said and done, you'll be paying $35k more for an M560v against a Haas. Perhaps that is worth it depending on the application, but it is no longer the no brainer price difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Those days are long over. Okuma tacked another $25k onto the base cost of the M560V, and their options pricing has always been heavily inflated. Just probing alone, you'll pay $10k more on the Okuma to get the exact same Renishaw hardware Haas sells. Then $8k for a 4th axis drive. $20k for the 4th itself. $12k for TSC.

    By the time all is said and done, you'll be paying $35k more for an M560v against a Haas. Perhaps that is worth it depending on the application, but it is no longer the no brainer price difference.
    Exactly that's why I used the term "making the leap to..." rather than saying casually sauntering sideways into a Genos M -560V

    I think the usual argument is that pre-tensioned ball screws and higher bandwidth control + rigidity (bridge style) come "Free" + outstanding build geometry + +. (no shims to speak of).

    'cuz the problem is you can't get those features for any amount of money from HAAS regardless of options of course..

    I know you know that :-)

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______


    + Okuma has very good thermal compensation strategies similar to MAZAK so the machine can be placed in an environment / shop that does have +/- 4 degrees Celsius and still keeps things between the rails even without scales. One big HAAS shop I know of has incredible climate control on a very large scale. That is one strategy.

    ++ Fine pitch ball screws and scales are still forbidden on the Genos verticals (460V and 560V).

  12. #29
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    Well I wondered how the OP drilled holes abd saw they were off by .002...was this with a drill bit and what did he expect...lol. You cant gauge a fucking hole from the end of a drilled hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    Well I wondered how the OP drilled holes abd saw they were off by .002...was this with a drill bit and what did he expect...lol. You cant gauge a fucking hole from the end of a drilled hole.
    First of all, yes you certainly can "gage" a drilled hole. You can inspect the crap out of it if you want / need to....

    Second, I personally was speaking of 2 bores (I said holes, but not drilled, actually didn't specify anything other than "hole")from opposite sides. And the parts I were running were out about .002" initially until I figured out I needed to probe them and call a new work offset to get them in-line.

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    Bore is different than drilled. Sure you can i spect a drilled hole but you certainly cannot metric a machines accuracy by it that is just sloppy metrology

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    Bore is different than drilled. Sure you can i spect a drilled hole but you certainly cannot metric a machines accuracy by it that is just sloppy metrology
    Redonion /OP

    posted this link

    UMC-750 Applications Troubleshooting Guide

    So these are artifacts (of a low precision and low accuracy positioning on a big Universal style table ) that people have to practically deal with / HAAS "expectations " with the UMC 750. + other factors.

    I interpreted it as opposing bores also (as that's a classic 5 axis problem).

    There's a whole bunch of cutting tests and alignment measurements + rotational plots + ball bar + laser interferometry for 5 axis machines... HAAS doesn't publish those BUT is oddly fairly transparent about certain things (you gotta give them that).

    Geometry Guide - UMC-Series

    ^^^^ Over all geometry setting of the machine (where the shims start to creep in at various places including the spindle headstock ).

    B-Axis and C-Axis Intersection - Alignment - UMC-750 - AD0308

    ^^^ Alignment of physical intersection of B and C axes on UMC 750

    UMC-750 Leveling and Alignment

    The basic tolerances of build geometry and positional and rotational errors + droops and twists here and there + reliance on foundation and size of table and machine all add up to what can happen. Hence their trouble shooting section.

    There are about 27 principal errors that add up for five axis. There's a lot to combat there especially for a larger machine that does not weigh 35,000 lbs.

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    I guess I am going to get the UMC-500. There are less cluster around the UMC-500's spindle and with smaller platter actually it has a better clearance thus it uses it's working evolope better than the UMC-750.

    Would you guys suggest me to get the HSK-63A option with 15K rpm spindle?

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    "Would you guys suggest me to get the HSK-63A option with 15K rpm spindle?"

    No opinon, but do tell us what you get and how it goes....

    And good luck with your decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    I guess I am going to get the UMC-500. There are less cluster around the UMC-500's spindle and with smaller platter actually it has a better clearance thus it uses it's working evolope better than the UMC-750.

    Would you guys suggest me to get the HSK-63A option with 15K rpm spindle?
    Get the fastest you can afford... especially if you do a lot of aluminium or plan to delve into hard milling.

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    @redonion I didn't fully grasp your point about the HRT 400 initially , having re-read what you wrote I get 1/2 of your point that using that 4th axis rotary intended for 3 axis mills is a bit of a "hack" to build your new HAAS 750's . lol (at that time). Although on paper the 4th axis drive (alone indicates slightly higher precisions and accuracies than the actual UMC 750.).

    I have high hopes for the cycloidal drives in terms of backlash compensation etc.

    One advantage of the HSK 63-A option is better control over Z height versus regular CAT 40 at higher RPM.

    Frank Mari had some good comments / insights about that (from Mari-tool) and how well the HSK interface has been implemented with / at HAAS. I.e. MTB builder has a lot to do with potential distortion of the spindle nose/ receptacle.

    It's a "risk" of sorts but not a bad one for price though.

    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

    Is anyone here driving a HSK spindled HAAS ? (maybe a separate thread starter ? )

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  25. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    @redonion I didn't fully grasp your point about the HRT 400 initially , having re-read what you wrote I get 1/2 of your point that using that 4th axis rotary intended for 3 axis mills is a bit of a "hack" to build your new HAAS 750's . lol (at that time). Although on paper the 4th axis drive (alone indicates slightly higher precisions and accuracies than the actual UMC 750.).

    I have high hopes for the cycloidal drives in terms of backlash compensation etc.

    One advantage of the HSK 63-A option is better control over Z height versus regular CAT 40 at higher RPM.

    Frank Mari had some good comments / insights about that (from Mari-tool) and how well the HSK interface has been implemented with / at HAAS. I.e. MTB builder has a lot to do with potential distortion of the spindle nose/ receptacle.

    It's a "risk" of sorts but not a bad one for price though.

    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

    Is anyone here driving a HSK spindled HAAS ? (maybe a separate thread starter ? )
    Why not start a thread to find out.

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  27. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Why not start a thread to find out.
    Is that directed at me or redonion ?

    I'm happy to start one , it'll probably sink like a rock but at least it can be a decent "Place holder" eventually .

    I think Frank Mari's fixing to make / launch a bunch of HSK tool holders for the uptake of the UMC 500 (should be pretty popular model). .

    If by 4pm [RMT] redonion doesn't throw one up I'll do it (for sure). I'm curious myself. For me that's a big selling point of the UMC 500.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Is that directed at me or redonion ?

    I'm happy to start one , it'll probably sink like a rock but at least it can be a decent "Place holder" eventually .

    I think Frank Mari's fixing to make / launch a bunch of HSK tool holders for the uptake of the UMC 500 (should be pretty popular model). .

    If by 4pm [RMT] redonion doesn't throw one up I'll do it (for sure). I'm curious myself. For me that's a big selling point of the UMC 500.
    Yes you lol


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