UMC-750 Gen III is Here - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    What happens when you cross 1000bps? Does it error out? Make rough paths? ???
    slows down/buffers trying to catch up to the code, can result in irregular finish.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    "We upgraded to the next size linear guideways."

    So, the new machines now have 45mm linear guides? Because 35mm is the standard for machines of that size...

    45mm rails are definitely the way to go for maximum rigidity and cutting performance in that size machine!

    Or, did the previous versions use 25mm rails (really wimpy), and now they've upgraded to 35mm??

    At a minimum, they should have cast some angled reinforcement into the truck mounting areas there on the bottom of the column...


    ToolCat
    I wondered this also in the video, or did they make an oddball for Haas with 40mm? I looked on parts site and what I assume is the old UMC-750 is 35mm. 45mm rails and hsk-a63 spindle could potentially make a pretty rigid machine, I would think.

    They weren't real clear on when they were talking rail size and rail spacing, engineer says went to next size rails on x and y but increased the spacing on all three? Could still be 35mm on Z.

    Sent from my SM-T720 using Tapatalk

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    45 and now 55

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    45 and now 55
    Knowing Haas, I highly doubt they would go to 55mm guideways on that size machine.

    55mm’s are huge, and normally used on huge machines.

    The guideways in the video looked more like 35mm to me, if so his claim they went to the “next bigger size” is either false, or the previous generation had 25mm guideways (highly doubtful as those are normally used only on tiny metalworking machines, and material handling equipment.)

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Knowing Haas, I highly doubt they would go to 55mm guideways on that size machine.

    55mm’s are huge, and normally used on huge machines.

    The guideways in the video looked more like 35mm to me, if so his claim they went to the “next bigger size” is either false, or the previous generation had 25mm guideways (highly doubtful as those are normally used only on tiny metalworking machines, and material handling equipment.)

    ToolCat
    Dumb-ass question, but why wouldn't MTBs just go big on everything? The marginal cost between 45mm guide ways and 35mm guide ways should (theoretically) be quite small as a portion of the overall machine cost. Isn't bigger == better?

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    YouTube

    a bit of umc500ss motion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Dumb-ass question, but why wouldn't MTBs just go big on everything? The marginal cost between 45mm guide ways and 35mm guide ways should (theoretically) be quite small as a portion of the overall machine cost. Isn't bigger == better?
    I have said this forever on roller vs ball linear ways, how much more would it really cost? Haas seem to go on the small side and use ball ways. Would be interesting to hear their justification on this.

    I watched video again, they sure look like 35mm.

    When I was nosing around the parts site, it looked like 45mm is the largest period. Even the ec1600 is 45mm. They would be turning over a new leaf if they used 45mm on that small of a machine.

    Sent from my SM-T720 using Tapatalk

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    Y & Z measure 35mm on my '17 750SS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Y & Z measure 35mm on my '17 750SS.
    So unless the new generation has 45mm guides, the Haas guy told a flat-out lie!

    Now, there are vastly different levels of rigidity and stiffness among a given size of linear guideway, so potentially Haas upgraded to a stiffer version of the same size linear guide as before?

    And you are correct, for a given set of linear guides, the price difference between 35mm and 45mm is maybe 25%? (Which would be just a couple/three-hundred dollars per axis on that size machine...)

    But Haas always seems hell-bent to use the least-cost components and shave corners...at all costs!

    Gene is missing a lot of market potential by not building a "world-class" line of Haas machines, and thus dancing with the big boys of Asia...

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Dumb-ass question, but why wouldn't MTBs just go big on everything? The marginal cost between 45mm guide ways and 35mm guide ways should (theoretically) be quite small as a portion of the overall machine cost. Isn't bigger == better?
    It's possible they may have tried that and found the guides not to be the bottleneck.

    One of the easy-gets with linear guides is just to space them out further.

    FEA has also gotten so much better and faster over the years that it's possible they found casting optimization to be much more effective than the old school, brute force method of simply making everything bigger.

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    Orange Vise's good point notwithstanding, anybody ever out there ever tried to refurb a Haas machine with new rails? The sizing is mostly standard, no reason you couldn't swap them out with a set of high precision preloaded roller ways. Curious how that'd affect the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post

    [/I]Gene is missing a lot of market potential by not building a "world-class" line of Haas machines, and thus dancing with the big boys of Asia...

    ToolCat
    I never understood why Haas didn't come out with e SR option (super rigid) and used upgraded cylindrical roller linear rails instead of the ball ones. Add an option for a more rigid spindle as well. You could up charge for the hardware and associated controller changes for tuning. It would fit well into Haas' business model.

    A redesign would be a good time to make sure you can interchange everything. The added costs in the castings would be negligible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Orange Vise's good point notwithstanding, anybody ever out there ever tried to refurb a Haas machine with new rails? The sizing is mostly standard, no reason you couldn't swap them out with a set of high precision preloaded roller ways. Curious how that'd affect the machine.
    You'd have to tear the whole machine down + All the squirrelly alignments and shims...

    That's effectively a $30k to $50k inetrvention


    Then while you're at you might as well retrofit the control front side and back side to a FANUC or something else like a Heidenhain, and then hand scrape a few joints here and there …

    And then by the time you are done you have invested $100K in time and materials , in which case it might have been more prudent to buy a Quaser / Taiwanese machine...

    It's interesting HAAS stays so much entrenched in it's own market space and yet seems to be an unbeatable "Formula" for them business wise.

    It is kinda frustrating, but seem they are slowly inching into a more Taiwanese build direction.

    HAAS has a lot to offer outside of "Machine".

    I agree that if they build more solid and precise machines for more $ "Peeps" would buy them , home team and user friendliness an all that. + support that's actually "There".
    Last edited by cameraman; 03-13-2020 at 12:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I agree that if they build more solid and precise machines for more $ "Peeps" would buy them , home team and user friendliness an all that. + support that's actually "There".
    I'm a firm believer in not venturing too far out of one's wheelhouse. While I have no doubt Haas would sell plenty of top end machines if they made them, I have no idea if it would be a profitable venture. More importantly, I'm not sure how it would affect the brand.

    Haas has successfully carved out and dominated the value and ease-of-use sector of the market. I think if they try to venture into other areas, e.g. top shelf, they run the risk of losing ground they've already gained. End of the day, I think the financial security of market sector dominance is more valuable than just about any other financial metric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Vise View Post
    I'm a firm believer in not venturing too far out of one's wheelhouse.
    Their wheelhouse used to be rotary tables. Imagine if they didn't venture outside of that!

    I don't think it would be much of a step for them to offer another line of machines much like many of the other MTB do. A line that is more inline with other top builders highest offerings. Keep in mind Haas is much younger than most of the well established big guys. They should have the experience now, they already have the customer base, they are constantly trying new things (UMC with all its variations, sub spindle lathes, hsk spindles etc). Almost like the Samsung of MTB, throw a bunch of ideas at the wall and see what sticks lol

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  19. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Vise View Post
    I'm a firm believer in not venturing too far out of one's wheelhouse. While I have no doubt Haas would sell plenty of top end machines if they made them, I have no idea if it would be a profitable venture. More importantly, I'm not sure how it would affect the brand.

    Haas has successfully carved out and dominated the value and ease-of-use sector of the market. I think if they try to venture into other areas, e.g. top shelf, they run the risk of losing ground they've already gained. End of the day, I think the financial security of market sector dominance is more valuable than just about any other financial metric.
    Other MTBs would love to take a substantial bite out of HAAS' market, that big juicy base of the pyramid.

    HAAS for sure does HAAS better than anyone else ; they have almost become the Bridgeport of the modern era.

    They- HAAS could split their lines into a Eugene HAAS "Special edition" , "EH" series.

    It's curious to me as in the USA it's almost always about taking everything to the MAX.

    Maybe you could have a separate HAAS-VFX series or HAAS-UMC-X series and so on.

    It probably wouldn't be cheaper than it's non-HAAS equivalent, but there sure are a lot of people that like HAAS.

    But I don't think they could do that until they overhaul the core architecture of their control / higher bandwidth.

    That maybe ten years from now.


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