[Unethical] marketing involving [at least one] forum member here - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    Anybody notice who started this thread? Generic Default calling someone unethical? Sound like the pot calling the kettle black.

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    But if'n I wuz looking at machines, this little trick would have me looking elsewhere.
    And you'd be hard-pressed to find a policy any different, from other machine tool builders. This has been discussed a lot on this board over time. You think that Doosan is alone in this regard? I can think of examples from Okuma & Mori with the same policy regarding spindle warranties & dual-contact holders.

    If'n you're NOT looking at machines, then please stop trolling with that noise.

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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    And you'd be hard-pressed to find a policy any different, from other machine tool builders.
    That can be their policy all they want, doesn't make it legal. You think Ford can make all their buyers use Shell gasoline or the warranty is no good ? Let's take that to a jury.

    Plus it's totally unethical.

    This is shit.

    If'n you're NOT looking at machines, then please stop trolling with that noise.
    We're looking at machines all the time. Need a Walter Vision right now, preferably around 2008-2010. Do you know of one ?

  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    That can be their policy all they want, doesn't make it legal. You think Ford can make all their buyers use Shell gasoline or the warranty is no good ? Let's take that to a jury.
    Ever read the fine print on the mileage warranty on a set of vehicle tires? I am pretty sure no one ever collected on one.

    As far as if Ford did that I do not see what would be illegal about it as I do not believe warranties are required on cars by law. Correct me if I am wrong, if that was the case people would just not buy Fords and force them to change their warranty policy.

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  8. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Ever read the fine print on the mileage warranty on a set of vehicle tires? I am pretty sure no one ever collected on one.

    As far as if Ford did that I do not see what would be illegal about it as I do not believe warranties are required on cars by law. Correct me if I am wrong, if that was the case people would just not buy Fords and force them to change their warranty policy.

    As referenced earlier in this thread, yes, the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act does make it illegal for Ford to require a certain brand of oil/filter/tires to maintain warranty. You are correct that they're not required to have a warranty. But if they have a warranty, they can't require you to only use Shell oil and Fram filters.

  9. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    As referenced earlier in this thread, yes, the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act does make it illegal for Ford to require a certain brand of oil/filter/tires to maintain warranty. You are correct that they're not required to have a warranty. But if they have a warranty, they can't require you to only use Shell oil and Fram filters.
    Interesting, strangely I used to use your two examples. I had a loyalty to Shell because my grandfather was a maintenance man at one of their refineries. I drove a lot of small block Chevys and they all took the same oil filter and a Fram was the first one I bought and had an easy to remember part number.

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  11. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    That can be their policy all they want, doesn't make it legal. You think Ford can make all their buyers use Shell gasoline or the warranty is no good ? Let's take that to a jury.

    Plus it's totally unethical.

    This is shit.
    This is the dumbest thing I have heard from you so far. Of course it's legal. They trademarked it, it belongs to them. They wrote the rules. If you want to play, you play by the rules. Nobody makes anyone use a dual contact holder. You are free to use standard holders. There is one company that states if you use standard holders, THAT will void your warranty. Now, that is unethical. Go try and hack some CAD/CAM software and tell a judge that there license agreement is unethical and illegal. Then go get fitted for some orange pajamas. Big Daishawa did not trademark a spindle taper, that's been in the public domain for decades. They trademarked/patented a RELATIONSHIP between the taper and the spindle face. That relationship tolerance is what they patented. Or is it patented even? Something protects it.

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  13. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    That relationship tolerance is what they patented. Or is it patented even? Something protects it.
    Pretty sure the Big Plus isn't patented. At least I couldn't find one. And if it was you could be sure that the owners would be enforcing it.

    If it indeed it isn't patented (and I don't see anything new here that you could patent - you can't patent tolerances), they are trying to use a trademark to protect their product. You can't call it a Big Plus without their permission. That and boogieman marketing, which never sits well with me.

    My experience with machine tool sales people and dealers hasn't been good. Mostly I think they use this type of nonsense to wiggle out of warranty claims.

    Make a good product. Stand behind it. Be fair and don't talk trash. That's why I like Maritool.

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  15. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    This is the dumbest thing I have heard from you so far. Of course it's legal.
    United States Code 2302 section c :

    (c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission

    No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

    (1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

    (2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.

    The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.


    I guess it's not illegal to try to scare people, but it is illegal to deny a warranty claim based on branding. Big Plus is a trademark. Trying to deny a warranty claim based on that is illegal.

    It may be the dumbest thing you've heard, but unless you have a waiver it's also federal law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    United States Code 2302 section c :

    (c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission

    No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

    (1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

    (2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.

    The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.


    I guess it's not illegal to try to scare people, but it is illegal to deny a warranty claim based on branding. Big Plus is a trademark. Trying to deny a warranty claim based on that is illegal.

    It may be the dumbest thing you've heard, but unless you have a waiver it's also federal law.

    This most certainly could come under sub-section #1. If the holders aren't made correctly, at the very least they would act like a standard holder. No point in even paying the premium cost On the other end of the spectrum, face contact only-no taper contact, they would most certainly damage your spindle.

    big-plus.jpg

  17. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by riabma77 View Post
    I noticed the note in MariTool's website, that dual contact tool holders are compatible with Big-Plus, but not licensed.

    Is Nikken a licensed tool holder manufacturer for dual contact? What is the difference between being licensed, and not being licensed?

    The license.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    This most certainly could come under sub-section #1.
    Then you better prove it and get that waiver. Until then, your warranty disqualification is illegal.

    p.s. It might be difficult to prove to a jury that a Mari holder of size x,y,z is less performant than a Big Plus tool of size x,y,z. In fact, I'd be surprised if the FTC granted that waiver .... unless you bribe them, which is certainly a possibility in the US now.


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