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Used HAAS vs New TORMACH

Max Weber

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
I'm looking to transition from hiring out my production to making it in house, as the shops in my area are expensive and have long lead times. I also have some new products on the horizon that will have multiple versions and parts that are "engraved to order", which makes it almost impossible to hire out efficiently.

My budget is going to be around $15k give or take which puts me pretty low on the chain of available machines. I think I could get away with a Tormach, but I would really like to get a used HAAS since I already have 3 phase power and I think it could grow with the business (maybe even bid on some simple jobs on the side)

How realistic is my approach? I have zero experience running a CNC. I would be willing to pay someone locally a consulting fee who knows what they are doing to help me select a used machine, set up, and program a couple parts for production so that I can take my time to learn everything while the machine produces what I immediately need.

What would you advise to do and what things should I take into consideration?

Thanks,
Max

Edit: My time frame is to have the machine up and producing parts within 3-6 months.

Parts produced in runs of 50-100 (main product is made from 6061 aluminum, upcoming product will be 17-4 PH Stainless)
 
Haas, but be patient and read up on the controls. Early ones are robust and simple to run, but are losing support from Haas. Newer ones are more expensive, may be less reliable overall, but are still supported.

Lots to read on PM, do some searching.
 
with the limited information you have provided, its basically the same as asking "used Chevy pickup, or new Kia?"

If you described the type and size of the parts you are, and maybe will, be making, and the machines you are looking at, it might be possible to give more of a recommendation.

regardless of that, you are talking about two very different classes of equipment. the question of new Vs. used is separate, what do you make? that will determine your best move.
 
Quick answer: Haas, no question.

My 1992 VF0 has had some issues but 90% I could fix myself or with the help of good people on here and friends with mad skills and she is faster and more power than a new Tormach - 16 tools in the carousel and holds 0.001" in most work all day long. About 15K invested total over six years including two new Kurt vices and 30+ new/used tool holders and a rebuilt power supply, one encoder and one rewound servo motor.

Study the machines and have money on hand so you have bargain power - hard to go wrong with a used machine that you can inspect working under power.

Control is easy to use and manual is not half bad. Not to knock Tormach, it has its place and can be quite impressive but it is small, slow and light construction - you may quickly outgrow it or wear it out before an older Haas.

B
 
Tormach calls their machines PCNC's .... PERSONAL CNC's..
Guess why that is????

So why the decision on Haas or Tormach???

There are a lot of other brands out there....

If you are going to buy a machine... Buy a machine.. Not a toy..
 
Neither. Get a Fadal.

Of the same vintage, Haas, mostly by right of still being a business with an ad budget, costs more money. A Fadal is at least as good of a machine, but you can get one in better condition for the same $15k.

Plus, there are no parts on a Fadal which if they fail require a $12,000 control replacement.

Neither is amazing. Both would blow the doors off of a tormach, if the tormach had doors.
 
Neither. Get a Fadal.

Of the same vintage, Haas, mostly by right of still being a business with an ad budget, costs more money. A Fadal is at least as good of a machine, but you can get one in better condition for the same $15k.

Plus, there are no parts on a Fadal which if they fail require a $12,000 control replacement.

Neither is amazing. Both would blow the doors off of a tormach, if the tormach had doors.

Fadal sounds like a great option too. The thing I'm concerned about with getting a used machine is 1) Buying something that is going to break down before I can make any parts 2) Have a hell of a time getting it set up

Any recommendations on places to find good used machines in California aside from Craigslist? I have a trailer with about a 5 ton hauling capacity and access to equipment to get it into my shop. I'd prefer to try and see the machine in person and pick it up myself. I'm in Northern California and would be willing to go as far North as Portland, as far South as San Diego, as far East as Reno or Vegas.
 

They sure prettied that little girl up nice. But on the two interior shots the first (low to the table) one shows some real rough breakouts from the "T" slots on the left and right, where the second (higher angle) pic shows a fixture plate added to the table to hide it. Uhh...

s-l1600.jpg s-l1601.jpg

I'd also want to confirm good, smooth operation of the tool change carousel, my VF-2 (one year newer) has gotten a little finicky with having the slide stop short of the spindle every so often and alarming out. Happens mostly after cold startup, but still a little annoying.

Speaking of, I'd search for a VF-2 over a -0 or -1, just for the extra X travel (30" over 20") Same footprint and weight (roughly), but 50% extra travel is a nice thing to have. I think I'd pass on this -0 unless it's cherry (but for the table top).
 
If you can up the budget a bit, I'd consider this machine, which seems to be in a more "honest" condition for it's age.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HAAS-VF-2-...956747?hash=item1ca035adcb:g:rOsAAOSwhfdadIVF

It's newer, comes with a fourth axis, and has the extra X travel. Yes, there's extra transport costs, perhaps you can find something like it closer. You could always make a lower offer to offset some of the shipping costs.

Even as a newb, if you're serious in your pursuits you'd want a fourth axis and ability to program it at some point. You can always dismount it for the non-use or learning period.
 
If you described the type and size of the parts you are, and maybe will, be making, and the machines you are looking at, it might be possible to give more of a recommendation.

We make compliance parts for the firearms industry. Everything is pretty small (fits in the palm of your hand). Our upcoming product that's made from 17-4 PH Stainless will be the smallest part yet (about the size of a USB stick)

The parts aren't extremely complex, but will require multiple setups to end up with a completed part.
 
...
How realistic is my approach? I have zero experience running a CNC. I would be willing to pay someone locally a consulting fee who knows what they are doing to help me select a used machine, set up, and program a couple parts for production so that I can take my time to learn everything while the machine produces what I immediately need.

What would you advise to do and what things should I take into consideration?
...
Edit: My time frame is to have the machine up and producing parts within 3-6 months.

I think hat is a realistic timeframe if you really get moving on it...

If you’re in the SF Bay Area, I’d strongly suggest you go visit De Anza College - they have a very good machining program. 2-3 night classes and you can be running some basic parts on a Haas VF0 or MiniMill.
 
I think hat is a realistic timeframe if you really get moving on it...

If you’re in the SF Bay Area, I’d strongly suggest you go visit De Anza College - they have a very good machining program. 2-3 night classes and you can be running some basic parts on a Haas VF0 or MiniMill.

That sounds like a great idea! I was already looking at taking some classes at College of San Mateo to enhance my design skills, I'll take a look at De Anza for the machine work. Thanks Mooner
 
Easy answer: not Tormach.

I own a PCNC 1100, which I have been very happy with since buying five years ago.

One thing it is not, is a production machine. I do 95% prototypes, and it suits my needs very well. I’ve done small batches of parts, a couple dozen maybe, but I wouldn’t want to do it too often.

One thing Tormach is good for is where you have serious space/power constraints. My building has 250# floors which limits my ability to bring in bigger machines.
 
Jesus, I can't believe what they are asking for those Haas machines. Easy double what they are really worth.

I'd be looking for something newer, Taiwan with a Fanuc control. Sharp 2412 maybe.

I just bought a 2008 Chevalier 40", side mount tool changer, twin augers, chip conveyor, 10K spindle, Oi-MC Control, with a 1000 PSI Chipblaster. Not thrashed, paid less than that VF-2 on ebay.

chev.jpgCB.jpginside.jpgmills.jpg
 
Hi Max - Haas, Fadal, seem the most popular. There are lot's of choices as you are finding out! My Son and I were in your shoes just 10mo's back. We have a Supermax CNC mill and needed to grow. We went thru 3 months of just going over machines and wondering what the right choice was. We went to sellers shops and looked and asked and learned. We ened up w/ a 1998 VF/4. My decision pro's for Haas included having HFO's (support offices) nearby (bout 10miles from my Son's place). I've called them for help at least 10 times. The parts guys... amazing. (kudos to Pete!) Many like their HFO, and some do not. I have called Haas CA and spoken to various departments. Most were helpful and gave me the help I needed. Fadal is out of business but there are support houses, spare parts, etc. Some are ex-employees. I have had parts on my doorstep from Haas the next morning b4 10am. I am not here to tell you who to purchase. My reply here is to tell you what I experienced so far.

I would not buy a Tormach... They look fun but it's not your growth path IMO. If you want a great source for Haas tips, CNC tips and such I do like to watch NYC CNC
- YouTube
web: Home - NYC CNC

BTW/ I really think that VF/2 shown from Lexington w/ the 4th is really sweet!

We bought a horrible looking VF/4... but it was all just cosmetic. We drove 6 hours to meet the inspection guy. Why not... It's your business. I would rather have a mechanically sound machine than a shiny shell and new Poly-C windows. Our 3rd party CNC inspection showed a machine mechanically ready but horrible looking. Made negotiating even better.

Next we tore ours apart to clean and update. Easy to do and learned how to really use it getting it ready. It's several ten's off in X & Y cold but does heat up and even out. So that to me for a 1998 machine is far superior to what we had. It's a beast....

There are diagrams and manuals for pretty much everything. instructions for self repair are abundant and very easy to follow.

Once in the door, we pulled all the Way covers, cleaned out everything. removed all the rust and crud, insured the oil was running where it was supposed to etc..

Good luck and keep us posted.
 
I have a 93 VF2 also, so I wasn't knocking on Haas. Just that era Haas control is a risk. They are pretty easy machines to work on though.

I'd suggest the OP talk to the larger shops in his area, and just ask them if they have any plans to update any equipment. There's a lot of that going on right now. If you buy from the owner, you can see it run, learn about the history, get whatever spares go with, and get a more realistic price because they need it gone. You know you're getting something that someone else was using recently.

That mill I bought was running production till the day before the riggers came to pick it up. It was powered back up on my floor the same day. No surprises.
 
.....My decision pro's for Haas included having HFO's (support offices) nearby (bout 10miles from my Son's place). I've called them for help at least 10 times. The parts guys... amazing. (kudos to Pete!) Many like their HFO, and some do not. I have called Haas CA and spoken to various departments. Most were helpful and gave me the help I needed.

If I had to talk to the dealer or factory 10 times in 10 months, and had to buy parts, I would not bragging up the brand, I'd be pissed.
 








 
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