Used HAAS vs New TORMACH - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    What worked for me probably won't work for you, but I make products and started out with zero knowledge of any of this.

    I didn't get advise from the internet. From faceless people behind keyboards. I went out and found people that did stuff like I wanted to do and asked them questions.

    I bought Jap machines with Fanuc and Mitsubishi controls. No regrets at all with that choice.


    I spent a lot less money and got a lot more machine and capability.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    If I had to talk to the dealer or factory 10 times in 10 months, and had to buy parts, I would not bragging up the brand, I'd be pissed.

    Ummm...it was a new to him '98 machine. At close to 20 years old I'd think if someone bough tone and tried to get it all humming up top par I could see multiple calls for help. Umbrella parts like the spring doors, and tool grabbers. Switches with new coolant to loosen things up. Leaking lube and air lines. Lots of stuff old owners just new how to work around the issue to run parts...but new owner is willing to do it right.

    Anyway it is nice to be able to call an HFO and have a tech walk you through the what might be wrong, how to fix or replace instead of trying to troubleshoot it yourself. Its is nice when your told your Tool fork Grabber is Shot and that is is most likely why machines dropping the tool. Then offered advise...well you can use another pocket, swap the pocket "1" fork with less used pocket "12" fork...or buy new forks, we have in stock at $60.00 each, you want us to come out and replace or ship and you can do yourself.
    Yes one can figure all that out themselves...but much less time and aggravation spent when you can call and be directed by someone in the know.
    Having had other brand machines that I need to troubleshoot myself I do brag about Haas service.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    Ummm...it was a new to him '98 machine. At close to 20 years old I'd think if someone bough tone and tried to get it all humming up top par I could see multiple calls for help. Umbrella parts like the spring doors, and tool grabbers. Switches with new coolant to loosen things up. Leaking lube and air lines. Lots of stuff old owners just new how to work around the issue to run parts...but new owner is willing to do it right.

    Anyway it is nice to be able to call an HFO and have a tech walk you through the what might be wrong, how to fix or replace instead of trying to troubleshoot it yourself. Its is nice when your told your Tool fork Grabber is Shot and that is is most likely why machines dropping the tool. Then offered advise...well you can use another pocket, swap the pocket "1" fork with less used pocket "12" fork...or buy new forks, we have in stock at $60.00 each, you want us to come out and replace or ship and you can do yourself.
    Yes one can figure all that out themselves...but much less time and aggravation spent when you can call and be directed by someone in the know.
    Having had other brand machines that I need to troubleshoot myself I do brag about Haas service.
    My point was, that would be an aggravating number of issues to deal with. If I had suffered that many problems at start up of a used machine, I'd kick myself for making a poor machine choice.

    Here is a direct comparison....

    I picked up a 1995 Mori about 5 years ago. When I got it the memory battery was dead so the parameters were lost. Came with manuals and a hardcopy of the parameters. Reloaded the parameters, reset the absolute encoders and then it's running. No calls for advice or service.

    In the past 5 years it has had just one failure. The Y axis ballnut lube line chafed through and had to be replaced. A length of 4mm nylon tubing from McMaster-Carr and a few zip-ties took care of the parts needed. No calls for advice or service needed.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    My point was, that would be an aggravating number of issues to deal with. If I had suffered that many problems at start up of a used machine, I'd kick myself for making a poor machine choice.

    Here is a direct comparison....

    I picked up a 1995 Mori about 5 years ago. When I got it the memory battery was dead so the parameters were lost. Came with manuals and a hardcopy of the parameters. Reloaded the parameters, reset the absolute encoders and then it's running. No calls for advice or service.

    In the past 5 years it has had just one failure. The Y axis ballnut lube line chafed through and had to be replaced. A length of 4mm nylon tubing from McMaster-Carr and a few zip-ties took care of the parts needed. No calls for advice or service needed.
    Mori Hardware should make the Mori Service Dept look like the Maytag repairman commercial. I, however, am not impressed with the Mori MAPPS control that began around 1999. Maybe just my experience.

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    I/We are Brand new to Haas. Ordered the PM basics, Rubber seals, all the fluids, we needed, I rebuilt many of the turret toolholders where slides were missing, plus and we put in the 4th axis drive. It was all good stuff.. Not the bad stuff.


    If I had to talk to the dealer or factory 10 times in 10 months, and had to buy parts, I would not bragging up the brand, I'd be pissed.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBeaman View Post
    Mori Hardware should make the Mori Service Dept look like the Maytag repairman commercial. I, however, am not impressed with the Mori MAPPS control that began around 1999. Maybe just my experience.
    That's a weird connection to make, hardware-technician.

    It wasn't a "MAPPS" control, it was the GE Fanuc 21i. MAPPS is a software option, but I do agree it isn't the best. IME it was a way for Fanuc to compete with Mazatrol and Okuma's IGF. Even though I dislike Fanuc, the 21i is dreamy compared to some of the other 42,000 controls Fanuc has built.

    With that said, if it's an option---don't push the button if you don't like it. Just use it regeler.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    That's a weird connection to make, hardware-technician.

    ....IME it was a way for Fanuc to compete with Mazatrol and Okuma's IGF.
    MAPPS is not a Fanuc product, it is a Mori Seiki product. Fanuc provided machine builders with the ability to create a custom U/I on the i versions of the 16-21 control.

    Some builders did very little and operationally they are 99% the same as "standard" Fanuc. Mori with the MAPPS and Amada with their EM-NT took it to extremes and it's tough to tell who made the control at first look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    MAPPS is not a Fanuc product, it is a Mori Seiki product. Fanuc provided machine builders with the ability to create a custom U/I on the i versions of the 16-21 control.

    Some builders did very little and operationally they are 99% the same as "standard" Fanuc. Mori with the MAPPS and Amada with their EM-NT took it to extremes and it's tough to tell who made the control at first look.
    I ran some NL's back in 2005ish that were 21 controls, with the MAPPS option (that we never used BTW) but from my memory it was exactly the same as one without the MAPPS option.

    But hey, if we were betting on my Memory we'd all be broke. Or the batteries would need to be replaced.

    R

  11. #29
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    I have two small HAAS mills, a Mini Mill and a TM 1. Bought the TM new in 2005 and it has retained a lot of its value and given great services all these years. The Mini Mill is a 2001 and I could sell it for what I paid for it used over 5 years ago.

    I don’t know about resale values for TORMACH machines but if you get a good used HAAS you have a very low risk should you need to sell it later. Also there are tons of infos out there about Haas machines.

    No matter what you get, you still have to buy a lot of tooling and learn about CNC machining, assuming you are already knowledgeable regarding analog machining.

    If you lack any experience as a machinist, you would do well to consider hiring somebody to run the machine and write the programs.

    But as to Tormach or Haas.... Haas!

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wilkins View Post
    If you lack any experience as a machinist, you would do well to consider hiring somebody to run the machine and write the programs.
    We are definitely open to hiring someone for equipment selection and setup. I don't mind being the monkey that keeps feeding stock into the machine while I actually learn how to use it. Things have really started speeding up lately, I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on a machine.

    What do you think is a fair price for assistance getting set up to make 2 parts on a new (to me) machine? They're pretty simple parts made from 6061 that fit in the palm of your hand.

    If anyone here is in the SF Bay Area and interested, send me a message.

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    I have no idea what workers cost in SF Bay area, I have a friend who lives there and I know that anything under a $100,000 a year is a tough.

    I think you may have a misconception about CNC machining: there is no set up the machine and a monkey loads raw material and cool parts come out. It don't work that way. You will need a staff person who knows machining, manufacturing and toolmaking technology, fixture design, quality control, etc etc. Nothing stays the same when making parts, the process is always in flux.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wilkins View Post
    I have no idea what workers cost in SF Bay area, I have a friend who lives there and I know that anything under a $100,000 a year is a tough.

    I think you may have a misconception about CNC machining: there is no set up the machine and a monkey loads raw material and cool parts come out. It don't work that way. You will need a staff person who knows machining, manufacturing and toolmaking technology, fixture design, quality control, etc etc. Nothing stays the same when making parts, the process is always in flux.
    Yes, hiring an actual employee is out of the question. I'm a pretty fast learner (learned how to design these parts in CAD in a week and the first prototypes worked flawlessly). I'm still requesting bids from outside the area, the shops in the Bay Area are spoiled and are really only interested in big clients (tech, medical, aerospace) most shops don't even respond when I ask for a quote because the work is not worth their time. If I was bigger I would totally hire a machinist, but I can't get bigger if the only person making any money is the machine shop!

    I'd rather learn how to make the parts myself at this point. Even if I end up hiring a machinist later, its good to have a basic understanding of whats happening. I refuse to outsource this even though it would probably make more economic sense (yes, I understand what it takes to successfully outsource. I have a Chinese girlfriend who grew up in an industrial city and I met her friends while I was in China who run a large facility there and offered to make the parts)

    It's true that an employee will cost more than a brand new HAAS. I'm finding machinist jobs on Craigslist around here that start at around $25/hr which is less than what Uber drivers make in this area. I'm confident I should be able to learn the basics fast enough to get these parts made. I can learn how to do complex work later.

    "I didn't get advise from the internet. From faceless people behind keyboards. I went out and found people that did stuff like I wanted to do and asked them questions. "
    Thank you faceless internet person

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    I think you should go for a Haas. I have a lot of experience on Haas mills and lathes. And they are easy to learn how to operate with basic machining knowledge. Plus they have lots of tips online (YouTube) and I'm sure their website. If your parts are simple as you say they are and you are machining aluminum. And you have enough tech savvy to design your own parts making them should not be that steep of a learning curve.
    Plus you have support here so I say go for it man, pull the trigger and start making chips!

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    A different approach you might consider is a lathe with live tooling. You say multiple setups, a live tooled lathe may make short work of your parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Weber View Post
    We make compliance parts for the firearms industry. Everything is pretty small (fits in the palm of your hand). Our upcoming product that's made from 17-4 PH Stainless will be the smallest part yet (about the size of a USB stick)

    The parts aren't extremely complex, but will require multiple setups to end up with a completed part.
    Are you having to hold any supertight tolerances or finishes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
    Are you having to hold any supertight tolerances or finishes?
    Nope. These products can be pretty loose on tolerances because of the way they are installed on firearms

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Weber View Post
    Nope. These products can be pretty loose on tolerances because of the way they are installed on firearms
    That is even more reason to consider a live tooled lathe. You can pick up a used Mazak SQT for 25 grand or so. An old one wont give you super finishes or tolerances on the milling work, but Mazatrol is super easy to learn and use, and the SQT's are solid machines. Keep in mind that they are lathes with milling capabilities, but that might be the ace machine for your work.

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    I'm back with an update. I start the DMT program at DeAnza College in July! Looking forward to building a solid foundation of knowledge. In the meantime, I'm trying to zero in on the right machine. I was looking exclusively at HAAS for a while (since that's the machines DeAnza uses) , but HAAS just doubled the price of their control replacement to $15k, which makes me lose confidence in the used market for HAAS. I'm looking at other machines at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I bought Jap machines with Fanuc and Mitsubishi controls. No regrets at all with that choice.
    I spent a lot less money and got a lot more machine and capability.
    What do you think about this Matsuura VMC? I like that it has a pallet changer. It's older, but if it's anything like the Toyota car I have with 350k miles, it will run long enough for me to make the parts I need. It's 12 grand and light enough that I can load it onto the trailer I have and get it into my shop. MATSUURA RA-IIF CNC VERTICAL MACHINING CENTER W/PALLET CHANGER CNC MILL VMC RA2F | eBay

    Is this just too cheap to even consider? I'm guessing the limitation with this machine will be the control (I think it only has 65k memory, but the parts I'm running now are pretty simple so I think I could get away with it before upgrading the memory later)

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    They're asking too much for a 25 year old machine that you won't be able to find parts for. Not "parts are too expensive", but "parts don't exist". In one plant I support they bought another Matsuura off of ebay to strip the Yasnac control out of it. I'd bet dollars to donuts the exact same happens to that machine.

    Any machine that old needs to be inspected in person under power before a nickel is brought out.

    Since your parts are small, why not look at 30 taper machines? Both Robodrills and Brothers can be had cheaply with some looking. Parts are generally cheaper, too, if needed. A Robodrill spindle cartridge is $3k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by footpetaljones View Post
    Both Robodrills and Brothers can be had cheaply with some looking.
    What are some good places to look?


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