Using height gauge as presetter

npolanosky · Jun 17, 2019

I just got a nice Tesa Hite 700 height gauge, and I was wondering if there's a way to use it to pre-set tool lengths for my older machines that don't have probing built in.
I would probably need a flat probe tip so I can just catch the high point of the tool instead of trying to get it with the round tip.

I suspect you'd want to set the datum on the spindle gage line instead of on the flange of the CAT40 holders, so that would mean I need something ground to an internal CAT40 taper with a datum point available to zero the height gauge on. Is this a product that already exists, or would I need to roll my own?

Obviously this is no replacement for a Speroni optical presetter, but it would be much faster and safer IMO than touching off with the little dial gauge in the machine. Easier for less experienced operators as well.

DMF_TomB · Jun 17, 2019

you can buy a tapered holder. common on setup benches.
.
tapered holder with a test bar with length and dia printed on its side can be use to calibrate your setup. test bar used to test many tool presetters often everyday.

npolanosky · Jun 17, 2019

DMF_TomB said:
you can buy a tapered holder. common on setup benches.
.
tapered holder with a test bar with length and dia printed on its side can be use to calibrate your setup. test bar used to test many tool presetters often everyday.

And where would I find such a thing? I know where to get a test bar, but the sleeve is eluding me. I'm just coming up with adapters for other presetters that won't work standalone.

JCarroll · Jun 17, 2019

npolanosky said:
And where would I find such a thing? I know where to get a test bar, but the sleeve is eluding me. I'm just coming up with adapters for other presetters that won't work standalone.

Haimer.
Buy it from the replacement parts for their heat shrink machine.

Ox · Jun 17, 2019

I just use a flat [ground] plate with a tapered hole in it and stuff a height gauge on it and drive on.

I need to update to Cat 50 yet, and I think that I'm going to mill a pocket in the (a?) plate and just turn a socket to fit in it in stead of trying to bore a plate like I did last time.

Just try to git the gap about the same and you should be fine. This aint a dual contact application...
.. well, if you DOO have dual contact holders in this taper, I would just ensure that your taper is at least slightly tighter than the spindle so both single and dual contacts all gauge the same. (Shoulder does NOT bottom out on socket/plate)

I have yet to figger out how they are able to sell units to doo this for many thousands of dollars.
If you are setting up something in D - like a boring bar or whatnot - then maybe ... but ... ???

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

DMF_TomB · Jun 17, 2019

npolanosky said:
And where would I find such a thing? I know where to get a test bar, but the sleeve is eluding me. I'm just coming up with adapters for other presetters that won't work standalone.

MSC, calling it a tightening fixture. there are many versions. you want type shown for bolting down i am assuming and want taper deep enough to hold align tool by gravity.
.
on optical tool setter i usually tap tool side to side and can see how well taper is holding it side to side

npolanosky · Jun 17, 2019

Interesting. That gives me some ideas. I'd really like to use my existing surface plate, since I'm not a fan of moving a 40" tall, 60lb height gauge all over the place.

But if the taper doesn't necessarily need to be ground I bet I could turn a socket on the lathe and surface grind everything when done to finalize datum surfaces and make it slide nicely on the plate. Hmmm.

DMF_TomB · Jun 17, 2019

npolanosky said:
Interesting. That gives me some ideas. I'd really like to use my existing surface plate, since I'm not a fan of moving a 40" tall, 60lb height gauge all over the place.

But if the taper doesn't necessarily need to be ground I bet I could turn a socket on the lathe and surface grind everything when done to finalize datum surfaces and make it slide nicely on the plate. Hmmm.

.
you can make almost anything but wouldnt surprise me if it would take many hours to make. often easier to buy already made

Ox · Jun 17, 2019

I doo run one like Tom has posted.
I don't like it, but replacing it hasn't gotten to the top of the priority list yet, so ..
With that set-up you just need to remember to subtract your "tear height".
It works, but not as nice as having it flush mount.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

DMF_TomB · Jun 17, 2019

dual contact spindles and tool tightening holders i would not assume taper and flat front face made or ground correctly. usually tool holder goes in with small .001" gap on front flat face and tool retention knob system sucks it in rest of the way.
.
need 2 different test bars one for dual contact tools and one for taper only tools. i have seen spindles before where front flat face needed regrind cause it was not allowing dual contact tools to contact taper AND front flat face. like could be over .010" and if you dont test for it might take some time before you figure it out. that is in contact with front flat face but not tight in taper. when you got a mix of dual contact AND taper only tool holders its important they stay in synch

Ox · Jun 17, 2019

OK - so what's the point of this "Test Bar"?
How is this used?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

DMF_TomB · Jun 17, 2019

Ox said:
OK - so what's the point of this "Test Bar"?
How is this used?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

test bar if it says on side 1.9999 dia and 8.0001 gage length gives you something to confirm the length measure device is calibrated. like using a gage block to check a micrometer
.
if zero to test bar and tool measured you get 3.0000 longer than its 11.0001 gage length. i test tool presetter usually everyday to see if calibrated. if its more than .002" off i zero return it and or call maintenance.
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its usually not off but better safer to check than to be sorry later

markp · Jun 17, 2019

I use this old matsuura fixture. You can also measure insert runout with it. These are cheap on ebay. Its easy to modify the grippers on the horizontal part of the fixture for other retention knobs. I changed it from matsuura to Cinci sabre 750.

npolanosky · Jun 17, 2019

A test bar would be sweet for getting things dialed, but I can also just toss a gauge pin in an ER collet and touch it off with my tool probe on my VM3, and just use that as the master. I don't need absolute accuracy, I just need good relative numbers so I can put any tool in any machine without fussing around with it too much.

I don't currently care about diameter. I program with CAM and just use wear comp if I'm doing something particularly tight tolerance, but it's rare I even need that.

No dual contact in this shop, so that'a a non-issue. Honestly if I had dual contact this would be easy since the flanges are ground to a tight tolerance, but on non-dual-contact tools I don't want to use them as a locating surface since I suspect they vary a bit, especially between manufacturers.

I like the socket that Tom posted, but I don't know if it's tapered inside or if it's just a plain old hole and they plan on you just setting the tool on the flange and tightening it.

If the flange thing would work I already have a few shopmade tool tightening fixtures that would do the job, but for this to work correctly I can't half-ass it. I may not need to whole-ass it, but we're looking for a larger amount of fractional ass

npolanosky · Jun 17, 2019

markp said:
I use this old matsuura fixture. You can also measure insert runout with it. These are cheap on ebay. Its easy to modify the grippers on the horizontal part of the fixture for other retention knobs. I changed it from matsuura to Cinci sabre 750.

Nice, I'll keep an eye out for one. That would just about do it.

Mud · Jun 17, 2019

You can use a 50 to 40 adapter for your 40 taper tools. Sandvik made tapered pots with a hex on the outside for this, I have one in 40 and one in 50, found on ebay. It's something easy enough to make in a lathe. I also have a Matsuura setter, they are nice, we set boring diameters with it.

DMF_TomB · Jun 17, 2019

tool tightening fixture i use many of them all have a taper.
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but cant guarantee all made are like that. if it says CAT 40 you would assume its got a CAT 40 taper on it.
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some have lugs so can only rotate 180 degree and others are lug free can rotate to any position like change 10 inserts on a facemill. lug one keeps it from spinning when tightening a collet

Ox · Jun 17, 2019

Those are tapered.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Edster · Jun 21, 2019

I bought a tool pot from Command years ago when I had a 50 taper machine. I'm surprised no one is making these for presetting tools with a height gauge. I met Frank Mari at his old shop years ago and asked if he would be interested in making these in 30, 40, and 50 taper, but nothing ever came of it.

Ox · Jun 21, 2019

What is the porpoise of that "pot"?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

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