What is the Most User Friendly Tool Presetter to Use
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    Default What is the Most User Friendly Tool Presetter to Use

    In our production area we have 4 vertical mills, 3 which utilize BT30 holders and one with a CAT40 spindle.

    We currently do not use any tool presetters, and myself am new to them.

    What would you recommend for the most user friendly tool setters, our production area doesn't have the most skilled operators so the only way utilizing a pre-setter will work is if it's painfully easy to use.

    Thanks,

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    What kind of machines?

    Renishaw OTS system on a Haas is hard to beat.

    I've used Renishaw and Marposs on Mazaks and as far as user-friendliness goes the Renishaw/Haas setup was better by about a mile.

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    1-2-3 blocks are my preferred tool setter. Plus they are way cheaper than a probe.

    There are arguments for both sides of the idiot proofing and efficiency conversation.

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    are you looking for a tool setter on the machines, or a stand alone presetter?

    As said, the Renishaw OTS is great. For a stand alone, A customer of mine has a Parlec presetter which is awesome. Easy to use and you can use it to check profiles on form tools and such. I looked into getting one, but north of $15K.

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    He's asking about a PREsetter, not an in-machine tool probe. All I know about them is the cheap ones that use a height gage. I never used one myself but always heard the guys using them bitching about how inconsistent they are. Depends on your accuracy needs though.

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    Correct, I am interested in a pre-setter, we have Renishaw OTS tool setters, but I would like to get this outside of the machine if possible, this would allow me to run redundant tooling and get 10% more uptime out of the machines.

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    OK, you've got several things to think about:

    1. How will the data from the presetter (typically gauge length and radius or diameter) be recorded, and how will it be fed into the controller of the machine? And how will it stay matched to the physical tool, so that the tool changer and the controller are in sync about what is where?

    There are very elaborate schemes with rfid chips and integrated networks, or you can hang a string-tag from mcmaster onto the tool, or whatever. But you need a system and everybody needs to be consistent or when Jo sets tools and Pat loads them things may go wrong.

    Seems to me that this part of the workflow would be the biggest problem for a shop with multiple users, multiple machines, and the users aren't ultra skilled (or even if they are if they don't all use the same procedure.)


    2. "manual" presetters like my ebloni require a particular process to get consistent answers - cleaning dust off with silly-putty, picking the biggest flute for radius, etc. This is not difficult, but if you have multiple people getting them to do it the same way will require thought.


    3. Do you use workpiece probes (renishaw omp-40 for example?) - you'll want the numbers from probing and the numbers from the pre-setter to agree - which can be tricky because probes move a little and can be hard to preset.

    Likewise, if you are using on-machine tool probes for tool size verification, wear measurement, broken tool detection, you'll need to sync them up with the offline pre-setter.

    If your tolerances are easy/loose, #2 and #3 shouldn't be too hard. If your tolerances are close/tight, it can be harder.

    (My elboni and my blum laser always match to better than a thou, but getting them to match to 0.000'2 is more work....)

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    We use this Kennametal TF-30 tightening fixture on a shop modified indicator stand for tool presetting. We faced some off the bottom of the fixture and it still clears the pull studs. Quick and dirty but it serves our purposes. The indicator is a Mitutoyo IDU travel gauge. Easy to reset and fool proof.q-dtoolpresetter.jpg

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    I am somewhat baffled on how a presetter can pay for it's self. Do shops really have workers that cannot set off a tool height? I am not trying to be a smart ass here, I really don't get it. If you cannot trust a worker or operator for the simplest of tasks how do you expect them to keep a tool presetter library all up to date with the tools? What happens when you change tools? do they go back to the presetter? What happens when they change tools and don't? Even if they go back to the presetter, if you can't trust them to manually touch off a tool, do you really trust them to get the presetter info to the machine? This seems like sooooo many bad things could happen with these. Buy a laser presetter for each machine, done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    I am somewhat baffled on how a presetter can pay for it's self. Do shops really have workers that cannot set off a tool height? I am not trying to be a smart ass here, I really don't get it. If you cannot trust a worker or operator for the simplest of tasks how do you expect them to keep a tool presetter library all up to date with the tools? What happens when you change tools? do they go back to the presetter? What happens when they change tools and don't? Even if they go back to the presetter, if you can't trust them to manually touch off a tool, do you really trust them to get the presetter info to the machine? This seems like sooooo many bad things could happen with these. Buy a laser presetter for each machine, done.
    Only time I've seen where they are indispensable is running older 5 axis mill where they don't have tool length compensation/

    3axis machines: 1-2-3 block wins user friendliness

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    I have used a few different presetters and parlec is by far my favorite as far as easy to use.

    We find them a must have item for getting the most out of spindle up time. When you have 25 machines running jobs that each have 15-50 tools, touching off each tool eats up a lot of time in the machine. Especially when you are doing several new parts a week.

    Parlec recently sold thier tooling division and just does presetters under the name Parlec by Omega. I just made a purchase order for a new one last week and working with them has been great.

    This is an article from the home page of PM about presetters:
    How the Right Presetter Can Affect Your Shop - Practical Machinist : Practical Machinist

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    I am somewhat baffled on how a presetter can pay for it's self. Do shops really have workers that cannot set off a tool height?
    You missed the point of a presetter. The point is to eliminate as much spindle down time as possible by accomplishing the height setting task offline. Employees not setting tool heights in the machine is only a byproduct. But the points made by bryan_machine above are all reasons I didn't go with a presetter. Too many moving parts for my taste, but I bet they work great in a very large shop, or any shop with horizontals.

    I ended up making a setup program that sets all tools and probes all work offsets automatically, plus it dumps any work & tool offset adjustments from the previous run in the control. So once the job is physically ready to go, it only takes about 1-3 minutes to set all tools and work offsets. Works great for us.

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    I’ve purchased Zoller and Parlec in the past.

    Zoller takes the prize for easiest to use in my book. Clear menus, good images of different measurement cycles, and the support is second to none.

    Accuracy seems equivalent between the two.

    Aside from avoiding machine downtime, presetting also allows you to measure features on form tools that would be tough to get with a laser or touch probe - things like points of tangency, undercuts in the tool, projected intersections of edges, etc. This function has been invaluable to me on several occasions.

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    You are right, I do miss the point of a presetter, that I why I ask. Gee, it takes an entire 7 seconds to set off a tool with a laser, people are that cramped for time? Even setting off a hundred tools, make a program and go grab a coffee ☺

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    You are right, I do miss the point of a presetter, that I why I ask. Gee, it takes an entire 7 seconds to set off a tool with a laser, people are that cramped for time? Even setting off a hundred tools, make a program and go grab a coffee ☺
    Efficiency is the only way we have a chance of competing in the global market we find ourselves in (or in my case, competing with the shop across the street, but at double their shop rate), and efficiency is accomplished in lots of small steps, not a couple large steps. So yes, several seconds here and there can add up quickly.

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    There useful to for presetting twin head boring bars.

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    On my DMU-60, the built-in laser tool setter is often obstructed by fixturing - the issue being you can't get the head low enough to measure a tool without hitting something. On my kind of weird one only long rolling projects (not commercial) this means a broken tool part way through is a huge problem. Offline setter solves this.

    Also, the DMU actually allows loading tools while running, but of course you can't be presetting something you are adding while running - offline setter big aid in this.

    One tool setter can support several machines, and at some point 1 pre-setter that gives consistent answers for multiple machines might be cheaper than tool probes on each machine.

    Finally, laser tool probes on machines take up space, from what I see contact probes take up even more space.

    Now, a height gauge on a taper sleeve can actually get the gauge line for all of these cases, and a collection of mikes probably close enough on the diameters. It's the "offline" part that matters, not so much the rest of it.

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    Not just for setting lengths, but you can also check runout and size. The actual tool length value also makes it easy to use the same tool in different places. And there are ways to do the actual tool lengths without a presetter. If all you want you want is the length, make or buy a pod and use a height gage.

    About half a year ago I started working in a shop that has a Zoller. First shop I've worked in that had one. I love it. It is super easy and quick to check tool runout, and you get the length. And corner rads. Whatever else you want to look at on a tool. Plus if you have time to get tools for the next job or operation while the machine is running, you just load the tools and type in the length.

    It really does make setup much easier, and less problems. When you have to try two different collets and two different holders to get your drill runout within a thou or two you realize for years, you've been drilling holes with the drills running out at times. And of course when that happened it was always a tap drill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by register View Post
    I’ve purchased Zoller and Parlec in the past.

    Zoller takes the prize for easiest to use in my book. Clear menus, good images of different measurement cycles, and the support is second to none.

    Accuracy seems equivalent between the two.

    Aside from avoiding machine downtime, presetting also allows you to measure features on form tools that would be tough to get with a laser or touch probe - things like points of tangency, undercuts in the tool, projected intersections of edges, etc. This function has been invaluable to me on several occasions.
    Good to hear the Zoller is relatively idiot proof/really clear/Easy to use.

    Coincidently MTDCNC just did a video on the Zoller presetters*... (three days ago). To me it looked kinda squirelly/complicated but good to hear that it IS organized in such a way that it's difficult to go wrong? Maybe?

    I thought their arguments for taking into account the idiosyncrasies of each machine seemed plausible, and arguments as to increased accuracies also a wake up call.

    I have to admit the on machine laser tool setters are depressingly crude for what you pay for. Basically does it break a 2.5 micron laser collimated beam or not. Over glorified version of the garage door safety device.


    As what folks are saying here (brian.pallas) a lot more information can be measured such as runnout and not just the highest insert. Seems pretty essential for high accuracy work, but I'm definite not bashing older and simpler methods either.

    According to Zoller and the MTDCNC "Bit". ROI was three months... They have case study on their (UK) web site. HUSCO International // Venturion 45� - Zoller UK

    And they have their online"Unicorn" productivity calculator too.
    ZOLLER -
    Productivity calculator


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________

    *No affiliation.


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