What is the Most User Friendly Tool Presetter to Use - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    I've had a Lyndex E123 presenter for about ten years. Its now the Koma Larth.

    Larth Tool Presetter

    Works great, and very easy to use. Its a budget presenter IIRC it was around $7500.

    Very quick to measure tool lengths to tenths. Try that with a 123 block or even a tool pot and height gauge. Unless you have a tesa hite or a trimos your not measuring to tenths. Your also not measuring runout or diameter.

    I have to admit the renishaw and Blum z nanos on the machines are spoiling me though. Don't think I can live without broken tool detection anymore.

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    Millabrator !!

    Okay, that's on-machine. Nice unit tho.

    Rip Van Winkel would be right at home here, this argument has been going on since 1975 that I can remember ... anybody recognize the readouts ? This one works great if you can find one, nothing to break and very accurate. Cost me $100 I think. Maybe $125 ...

    cutter_setter.jpg

    Ooops, I lied. The light bulb can burn out


    @Fidia guy : all that crap breaks and costs a bundle to fix. Meanwhile the machine is down cuz if you depend on the thing, you don't have any backup. If you are the guy paying the bills something like this is way better. Even the antique mechanical one I ran on an nc Bridgeport was better - it never broke. Ever. (Not a big fan of tool probing, as you can tell )

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    Very quick to measure tool lengths to tenths. Try that with a 123 block or even a tool pot and height gauge. Unless you have a tesa hite or a trimos your not measuring to tenths. Your also not measuring runout or diameter.
    I won't argue the measurement accuracy, as long as it's calibrated and working, I will never even try to compare the accuracy. Must be just a personal thing that I'm not comfortable with, but even if it measures to .0002" on length and close to that on diameter, I am not going to just run a part without offsetting measuring and adjusting and running a tool again. (keep in mind I'm a jobber, not a production guy).

    Lets use an example; A Boss has a diameter callout of 1" ±.0005. You use said Wazzoo® Presetter that measures tool runout at .0003" TIR. Does the SPC input the correct offset in the Wear or Radius Comp. of that specific tool? Same question with a featured depth of ±.0005" in a pocket or something, do you just run it?

    For me personally it would take a few (Hundred) proven parts for me to get there.

    R

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I won't argue the measurement accuracy, as long as it's calibrated and working, I will never even try to compare the accuracy. Must be just a personal thing that I'm not comfortable with, but even if it measures to .0002" on length and close to that on diameter, I am not going to just run a part without offsetting measuring and adjusting and running a tool again. (keep in mind I'm a jobber, not a production guy).

    Lets use an example; A Boss has a diameter callout of 1" ±.0005. You use said Wazzoo® Presetter that measures tool runout at .0003" TIR. Does the SPC input the correct offset in the Wear or Radius Comp. of that specific tool? Same question with a featured depth of ±.0005" in a pocket or something, do you just run it?

    For me personally it would take a few (Hundred) proven parts for me to get there.

    R
    It's simple to check the calibration. Just insert the standard and measure it. I usually check it each time I turn the presetter on.

    If you use the same test bar to set the presetter and the machines tool and spindle probe everything will be so close it's almost like cheating.

    For example I machined a set of pallets for my veros system. I set Z zero to the top of the veros clamping module with a renishaw probe. The face mill was set on the presetter. The pallet was supposed to be 50mm. I hit the number on the first try, measured by my tesa hite.

    More important is the realtionship between different end mills. If I have a rough, semi finish, and finish end mill, they will measure so close I don't have any blending marks in a pockets floor.

    Instagram
    Last edited by Edster; 01-30-2018 at 04:36 PM.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    ...
    Lets use an example; A Boss has a diameter callout of 1" ±.0005. You use said Wazzoo® Presetter that measures tool runout at .0003" TIR. Does the SPC input the correct offset in the Wear or Radius Comp. of that specific tool?......

    R
    Hopefully as that is the purpose of buying these fancy things.
    Note that you can't just shove the data in the controller's comp as you measure since the tool is in the presetter not the machines rack.
    Hence the use of electronic tags on holders which can hold the data or reference a database where the control can find the info.
    More of a production thing and 7 seconds on a 30-60 sec cut is a long wait just like slow tool changers.
    To some speed and seconds count, to others it seems like a waste of money.
    Lower cost ones are contact and up sharp carbide and even more CBN/PCD tools just do not like contact measuring which leads to another dilemma as contact can check tighter as it does not have wavelength of light diffraction problems.

    Parlec and Zoller sort of rule this world now but there are others.
    As you can imagine accuracy and runout of that taper on the bottom needs to be dead nuts and if your spindle taper can't match it tenths or microns will not matter so a plus one for in machine spindle measuring even if it is not as accurate.

    It makes a lot of sense for some and is a dumb idea for others.
    I have seen it used well and seen it a total waste of money just to have a show off toy.
    Bob

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by honda1988 View Post
    Correct, I am interested in a pre-setter, we have Renishaw OTS tool setters, but I would like to get this outside of the machine if possible, this would allow me to run redundant tooling and get 10% more uptime out of the machines.

    You can run redundant tooling no matter what your configuration is, whether you use a presetter or machine probe. All the probing routines are simple macros so you make them sing and dance however you please. Don't feel you are restricted to the way your machine came out of the box.

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    an Origin- if you are looking for specific task oriented simple to use it don't get much easier than this!
    No having to pick cutter shapes or crazy focus features, just Bring the tool into the camera view, push the icon for the feature you want to measure, print a label DONE it really is that simple and easy!
    Now if you're looking for something that has a few hardware options for tools that are outside of the Origin's measuring range but it's just as simple to use a 1550 with G3 software is a great choice with the added feature if you outgrow the G3 software and want to get into post processing or RFID you can always upgrade to the software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by register View Post
    I’ve purchased Zoller and Parlec in the past.

    Zoller takes the prize for easiest to use in my book. Clear menus, good images of different measurement cycles, and the support is second to none.

    Accuracy seems equivalent between the two.

    Aside from avoiding machine downtime, presetting also allows you to measure features on form tools that would be tough to get with a laser or touch probe - things like points of tangency, undercuts in the tool, projected intersections of edges, etc. This function has been invaluable to me on several occasions.
    This is a reason where I really understand why the presetter can do a better job than a laser probe. Measuring complex parameters like this would be next to impossible with a ordinary laser probe, so you would need a presetter or an inline camera tool setter to get the job done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    You are right, I do miss the point of a presetter, that I why I ask. Gee, it takes an entire 7 seconds to set off a tool with a laser, people are that cramped for time? Even setting off a hundred tools, make a program and go grab a coffee ☺
    Have you used a good presetter? I don't have one, but I miss working at a place that did.

    I have a laser in one machine and a renishaw OTS on the other. Both have parametric programs written to measure all new tools automatically. While that works for 90% of usage cases, a presetter can handle that last 10%. I miss the ability to accurately setup boring bars offline, as well as being able to set spot drills and countersinks from their theoretical tip.

    The other thing is, that cycle time does add up. Shops running cell system with dozens or hundreds of tools going in and out every day will get a measurable ROI just from the cycle time savings. Adding an RFID chip system can expand upon those time savings, by removing the need for operators to enter any data.

    Every shop doesn't need a presetter, but there are plenty who get their money's worth out of them.

  12. #30
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    I'll tell you one I don't like. I bought a Dorian a few years back. It does the job but is not user friendly at all. There have been times where I wanted to burn it. It does the job but not near as nice as a non-contact Zoller. If the money was there I would get a Zoller.
    I've since bought a machine with probing and don't use the pre-setter for that machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I won't argue the measurement accuracy, as long as it's calibrated and working, I will never even try to compare the accuracy. Must be just a personal thing that I'm not comfortable with, but even if it measures to .0002" on length and close to that on diameter, I am not going to just run a part without offsetting measuring and adjusting and running a tool again. (keep in mind I'm a jobber, not a production guy).

    Lets use an example; A Boss has a diameter callout of 1" ±.0005. You use said Wazzoo® Presetter that measures tool runout at .0003" TIR. Does the SPC input the correct offset in the Wear or Radius Comp. of that specific tool? Same question with a featured depth of ±.0005" in a pocket or something, do you just run it?

    For me personally it would take a few (Hundred) proven parts for me to get there.

    R
    I'm with you on this, I have used presetters, Renishaw and blum (prefered the blum) lasers on high end, high precision machines and on parts were getting it wrong wasn't an option. There's no way I would rely on it hitting ±0.01mm, I knew it would easily easily hit ±0.002mm but when you don't get a 2nd chance if it does cut under, I would still hold off and drop it in.

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    Not when you consider what your time cost to set by hand. The Haas sets the tools while I am doing other work. They are always dead on. In conduction with wireless probe you can hit your final height to less than .0005 and do it across many coordinate systems. Most productive tool I have ever used in 40+ years.

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    Ill tell you the one we use and like....Id be happy to answer any questions you have.

    https://www.bigkaiser.com/sites/defa..._0.pdf#page=21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARB View Post
    I'll tell you one I don't like. I bought a Dorian a few years back. It does the job but is not user friendly at all. There have been times where I wanted to burn it. It does the job but not near as nice as a non-contact Zoller. If the money was there I would get a Zoller.
    I've since bought a machine with probing and don't use the pre-setter for that machine.
    I'm curious to what Dorian model you have used / don't like? We had one, a manual model where you set it with an indicating tip thingy and it was pretty spot on for length and diameters (boring bars). I wouldn't say "easy to use" as the operator had to know how to use an indicator (and offsets were manually entered)...

  17. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I'm curious to what Dorian model you have used / don't like? We had one, a manual model where you set it with an indicating tip thingy and it was pretty spot on for length and diameters (boring bars). I wouldn't say "easy to use" as the operator had to know how to use an indicator (and offsets were manually entered)...
    I'm not sure on the model. It uses a metal member to touch off on the tool. It does measure length and diameter. Those are the good parts.
    The bad parts.
    It eats batteries
    The vertical guides are cheap plastic and are sensitive to humidity. Sometimes it's too loose and others it's so tight you can't get any feel.
    The buttons are not intuitive at all.
    I find the accuracy is not that great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARB View Post
    I'm not sure on the model. It uses a metal member to touch off on the tool. It does measure length and diameter. Those are the good parts.
    The bad parts.
    It eats batteries
    The vertical guides are cheap plastic and are sensitive to humidity. Sometimes it's too loose and others it's so tight you can't get any feel.
    The buttons are not intuitive at all.
    I find the accuracy is not that great.
    Batteries? Definitely not what I was using. The one I used plugged into 120v (standard house type plug).... It was within .001" of what I would /could get measuring in machine, depending on how fussy you were with indicator "zero" so I think it was pretty good.


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