What’s the future mass production machine look like?

Adams · Aug 13, 2019

I think everybody can agree that for high volume production work (outside of Aerospace) robodrills and brothers have absolutely killed it over the past decade. If you’re writing the history book of machining then the BT30 drill tap machine is the workhorse of the first two decades of the 21st century.

I’m curious what everybody thinks the “drill tap machine of the future” looks like, aka what will the Replacement in the 2030s. Will it be more of the same but with an HSK40 spindle replacing the BBT30? More RPM? Linear motors (I think not)? 5 axis on everything (for production I don’t see a huge need more than 4 but maybe I’m stubborn).

Anything you’d like to see but isn’t on the radar?

Finegrain · Aug 13, 2019

I would think a high-speed 30-taper machine with integrated stock infeed, P1 >> P2, and part outfeed would be a winner -- like a VMC + robot, but integrated, with integrated stock and part aggregation. Something like we have today with barfed lathes and parts accumulators.

A high % of parts (at least the ones I see

) can be made with a simple 3-axis machine -- the long pole is stock and finished part movement.

Regards.

Mike

2outof3 · Aug 13, 2019

The latest generation of the 30 tapers are really efficient but like Mike said, it is the load and unload part that will define the next step not linear motors or other things. That is the next step. Built in automation that is simple and easy to make the change from one job to the next.

Vancbiker · Aug 13, 2019

Adams said:
I think everybody can agree that for high volume production work (outside of Aerospace and automotive) robodrills and brothers have absolutely killed it over the past decade. ......

Fixed this for ya.

Jashley73 · Aug 13, 2019

Vancbiker said:
Fixed this for ya.

Tons of 30-taper machines here in the Midwest, cranking out aluminum parts for the auto industry.

Perhaps Brother needs to work on a traveling column machine, with a 4th axis & collet setup, and a bar-feeder. Gantry or articulating robot for the unload. Actually, all this tech exists today, someone just needs to put the pieces together to make it happen. (And perhaps in some factory here in the US already, this is that firm's "trade secret," for the time being at least...)

Drill/tap machines with C4/C5 Capto spindles would be great.

Hopefully by 2030, KM6350 (And all KM derivatives) will have finally died out. Probably not though...

Vancbiker · Aug 13, 2019

Any mass produced product will have some parts that work with 30 taper. Most powertrain parts don't though.

Speedie · Aug 13, 2019

The future does not include the caterpillar taper in my opinion. It may include variants of the taper but todays 30 taper spindles have a retention knob that limits virtually all other factors. Is there any 30 taper spindles with a serious retention knob? Mass production is a balance of cutter life and quotas. Increased rigidity, changes in cutter geometry and materials and coatings and very basic robot feeders I think will be implemented but that is not revolutionary. In the future we will have bubbles that pop out of a zit on your neck and when you think about a part the molecules start to swirl and then bam...there is your part.....melted and droopy. WELCOME TO THE FUTURE MCFLY....HERE IS YOUR MCPART

Pattnmaker · Aug 13, 2019

Haven't you guys been paying attention to the news. The parts will all be 3d Printed. No machining needed.

gkoenig · Aug 13, 2019

Speedie said:
The future does not include the caterpillar taper in my opinion. It may include variants of the taper but todays 30 taper spindles have a retention knob that limits virtually all other factors. Is there any 30 taper spindles with a serious retention knob? Mass production is a balance of cutter life and quotas. Increased rigidity, changes in cutter geometry and materials and coatings and very basic robot feeders I think will be implemented but that is not revolutionary.

BT30 with the dainty pull-stud works perfectly well for the vast majority of the applications these machines are used for. It is important to remember that 99% of the Speedios and Robodrills ever made are going into production environments where they are drilling/tapping/facing parts that have already been extruded, forged, or cast. Very light cuts, with very high precision, and crazy speeds are the order of the day. In those environments, where programs are proven over weeks, and lots of testing is conducted to creep up on the lowest cycle time possible, you are never in much of a position to break a pull stud. The vast majority of Brothers and Robodrills ever made, will run a single program for their entire service life, and be scrapped when the product is EOLd.

Is is primarily a US West Coast thing that Speedios are getting popular in job shops/prototype/garage applications. Multiple setups per week, often pushing the bounds of what BT30 is capable of, running new and untested code all the time. These guys (like myself! knock on wood) are the ones for whom the BT30 pull stud is a bit risky.

These machines are really intended for the Japanese production mindset, which takes a methodical approach to setup. I'm dialing in a production job which really needs a 2" Sandvik 790 for various reasons. Last week, I took literally 30 test cuts to find the maximum feed rate I could reliably run at, then backed it down 10% and will likely lock that into the setup.

thermite · Aug 14, 2019

Pattnmaker said:
Haven't you guys been paying attention to the news. The parts will all be 3d Printed. No machining needed. ��

Obsolete, already.

They will be "grown" to self assemble out of a nutrient broth, the patterns controlled off kludged-with substitutes for DNA.

Not 'coz we cannot DOO DNA. The prototypes are called "babies". But there is need of only one arm, one, eye, and no legs atall to push a button.

Trained worms to humans, general purpose DNA just has too much expensive overhead,

After all, "cutting costs" is the one thing that never changes.

Jashley73 · Aug 14, 2019

gkoenig said:
BT30 with the dainty pull-stud works perfectly well for the vast majority of the applications these machines are used for. It is important to remember that 99% of the Speedios and Robodrills ever made are going into production environments where they are drilling/tapping/facing parts that have already been extruded, forged, or cast. Very light cuts, with very high precision, and crazy speeds are the order of the day.

I could also walk you into a few factories where the Japanese mindset has employed 30-taper machines (and HSK63 machines) "Just because," and as a result, they're not an ideal fit for the task at hand. Keep in mind that an automobile also has a lot of cast ductile iron parts, and those don't behave the same as a cast-aluminum part. While I'm typing this, I'm thinking of more than a few applications at several Japanese owned factories that are really ham-strung, because they decided to use 30-taper machines, or HSK63 even, where a larger spindle connection would have performed better.

I've said it before on here, but there's a real place for a 400x500x800 stroke, small foot-print, 50-taper machine.

The automatic rebuttal from the 30-taper crowd is going to be... "Yeah, but the 30-taper machine changes tools so fast, you can afford to make concessions on speed/feed/cycle time because 30 taper. Faster. Wham Zam...

To which I would respond, that the "Japanese Production Style" of rows of machines arranged in a transfer-line setup, performing short cycles, doesn't necessarily demand quick cycles. It demands consistent repeatability. More rigid machines & tools help aid in repeatability, especially in difficult materials, like forged steel & ductile iron...

TeachMePlease · Aug 14, 2019

My ideal mass production machine? A Swiss style lathe that has 2 gangs, a turret (possibly 2, one for the sub spindle), back working tools, and a bar feeder, that can handle up to 8" round bar stock.

Practical? No way. But man, I could do really, really cool things with it.

fmari --MariTool- · Aug 14, 2019

As a tool holder manufacturer I can say a few things.

1 Yes BT30 and Dual contact BT30 are getting more and more popular and capabilities are getting pushed to the limit

2 BT30 pull studs are a limiting factor. Hopefully we will have a solution or at least major improvement on that in 2020. Still in the works so I can't say anything else.

3 BT30 not going away anytime soon. Many companies are in too deep in BT30. Between all the tooling they have and presetters etc etc. No machine tool builder would have the testicle fortitude to make a machine with only HSK or Capto spindles available. They would be shooting there own feet.

4 Machine tool builders will eventually phase in as an upgrade or option Capto. I think currently it is a toss up between Capto and HSk but in the future with machine layout getting more creative and spindles being used as turning tool holders ( such as the brother MX140x1) and spindles used as broaching and shaping where its angular orientation and repeatability is critical Capto is the only option. Even HSk does not have tight enough angular repeatability.

Just my 2 cents.

thermite · Aug 14, 2019

TeachMePlease said:
My ideal mass production machine? A Swiss style lathe that has 2 gangs, a turret (possibly 2, one for the sub spindle), back working tools, and a bar feeder, that can handle up to 8" round bar stock.

Practical? No way. But man, I could do really, really cool things with it.

Guess that will keep auto fed 8" gun shore bombardment ships in ammo, Oldendorf's line at Leyte Gulf putting 90 rounds aloft before the first one impacted.

But we were talking FUTURES, man! Not World War TWO!

fmari --MariTool- · Aug 14, 2019

Max rpms on a 8" barfeeder would be terribly slow. Let me put it this way.
For 3" and 2.5" rnd x 12' long to be idiot proof and pretty much always run good even with some not too straight bars max rpms is 1000 rpms. That is safe and vibration doesn't get too bad. A nice straight bar you can run at 2000, but let a bad bar get past you and run it at 2000 rpms, shit man your anchors are gonna tear off the floor. So imagine a 8" bar.

mhajicek · Aug 14, 2019

fmari --MariTool- said:
2 BT30 pull studs are a limiting factor. Hopefully we will have a solution or at least major improvement on that in 2020. Still in the works so I can't say anything else.

Gonna make adamantium pull studs Frank?

TeachMePlease · Aug 14, 2019

fmari --MariTool- said:
Max rpms on a 8" barfeeder would be terribly slow. Let me put it this way.
For 3" and 2.5" rnd x 12' long to be idiot proof and pretty much always run good even with some not too straight bars max rpms is 1000 rpms. That is safe and vibration doesn't get too bad. A nice straight bar you can run at 2000, but let a bad bar get past you and run it at 2000 rpms, shit man your anchors are gonna tear off the floor. So imagine a 8" bar.

I didn't say it was practical... I said I could have fun with it

thermite · Aug 14, 2019

TeachMePlease said:
I didn't say it was practical... I said I could have fun with it

Certain amount of pride in making a locomotive axle on a 1920's Niles or 1930's Large & Shapely.

$3.34 an hour beat all Hell out of pumping gas for $1.25, too.

"Fun", OTOH, was still a hot chippie, off-hours though. Not the same as hot chips, even if she left a few scratches or welts, here and there.

Your priorities are your own, Pilgrim!

Orange Vise · Aug 14, 2019

mhajicek said:
Gonna make adamantium pull studs Frank?

Could probably improve BT30 pull stud reliability by using a high strength steel with excellent toughness. Aermet 100 comes to mind. Question is, will folks pay a premium for them when offered a choice of cheaper studs?

Mike1974 · Aug 14, 2019

fmari --MariTool- said:
Max rpms on a 8" barfeeder would be terribly slow. Let me put it this way.
For 3" and 2.5" rnd x 12' long to be idiot proof and pretty much always run good even with some not too straight bars max rpms is 1000 rpms. That is safe and vibration doesn't get too bad. A nice straight bar you can run at 2000, but let a bad bar get past you and run it at 2000 rpms, shit man your anchors are gonna tear off the floor. So imagine a 8" bar.

Hell we are talking the future here man! We would have sensors on the bar feeder and every new bar loaded would be checked for runout and slowly ramped to speed and checked the whole time. Get a bad bar? Machine alarms, kicks out the rejected bar into an auto dump door

and loads a new one!

:cheers:

What’s the future mass production machine look like?

Plastic

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