What's the deal with dmg mori

What's the issue this board has with dmg mori vmc?

I have a design and engineering firm that has been transitioning to a design build house over the past few years. One of my vendors has taken me under his wing and taken me from manual Bridgeport to cnc (he sold me a converted Lagun knee mill and together we use hsmworks /solidworks). I have reached the point where I'm tired of manually changing tools, cleaning the blizzard storm of chips off the floor, manually brushing lubricant on the work surface, and am really excited to try an automatic tool / workpiece probe.
I was all set to buy a "starter" VF2 Haas. But then the DMG Mori rep swung by and showed the ecoline 1100v. I got Christmas morning excited. But as I dug in (reading a couple posts here), dmg mori doesn't seem to produce a durable product. Google searches for best VMC , and mori seiki consistently pops up as "one of the best machines in the world" list. Which seems to be in stark contrast to what you guys have said.
Is it that the dmg merger ruined their reputation and reliability? Is it that the ecoline is a poor product in an otherwise great product line?
I guess my question is "Is the general consensus that the ecoline should be avoided?"
Is there a "How to buy an entry level VMC for noobs" thread that someone could link me to?

I've been reading all I can find on this. I'm sure I haven't found it all, but..... From what I've found, seems like most of the problems are with the higher end machines. I've seen a couple of horror story threads. Pre-merge, Mori was pretty known as the "gold standard" to a lot of people - or right up near the top at least.

If I were in your shoes, I would get a Haas VF-2. I started off with a CNC knee mill, pneumatic draw bar, 30 taper. I did get a different machining center before I purchased my VF-2 (which was maybe 6 or 7 years old when I bought it.) You can make money with the VF-2. Mine has been pretty darn reliable, and simple enough that even I can make it work. You can get service and parts for it quickly in the US.

I think when people are now asking if a new model is a DMG or Mori design, its not because they want a DMG design...

Can't help but get the impression that Mori lost a lot more than what DMG gained in this merger, so far anyway.

Jodgey said:

I have a design and engineering firm that has been transitioning to a design build house over the past few years. One of my vendors has taken me under his wing and taken me from manual Bridgeport to cnc (he sold me a converted Lagun knee mill and together we use hsmworks /solidworks). I have reached the point where I'm tired of manually changing tools, cleaning the blizzard storm of chips off the floor, manually brushing lubricant on the work surface, and am really excited to try an automatic tool / workpiece probe.
I was all set to buy a "starter" VF2 Haas. But then the DMG Mori rep swung by and showed the ecoline 1100v. I got Christmas morning excited. But as I dug in (reading a couple posts here), dmg mori doesn't seem to produce a durable product. Google searches for best VMC , and mori seiki consistently pops up as "one of the best machines in the world" list. Which seems to be in stark contrast to what you guys have said.
Is it that the dmg merger ruined their reputation and reliability? Is it that the ecoline is a poor product in an otherwise great product line?
I guess my question is "Is the general consensus that the ecoline should be avoided?"
Is there a "How to buy an entry level VMC for noobs" thread that someone could link me to?

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Just to be really clear... The NVX5100 VMC is an outstanding and excellent machine... Very accurate (probably the most accurate machine in its class/type and price range...). That machine was based on the NV Mori design and given the merger have done a super job with that machine. The NVX5100 is about $140K base price... (interestingly it comes with chip buckets built into the machine).

The ecoline had a bumpy start as a lot of the key components and machines were being manufactured in China... They are not doing that anymore at least for European and US markets...

2nd thing to note is that I have it on "Good authority" that the NEW eco-mill such as the 1100V was designed by the same (Japanese designer) that designed the Mori Seiki Dura Verticals... The Dura verticals were very well respected machines... The NEW "eco" 1100v is built in Davis... So theoretically two faults that have been eliminated. 1. China... 2. Bad design! :-) .

DMG Mori are not morons but if you will their "German side" is not so willing to accept fault for previous failures but in a sense would rather highlight the New machines as being "Revolutionary"?...

Personally I think they would be able to sell these machines to a more trusting market if they made a PR video with an old eco-line machine stripped down standing next to the NEW ecoline machine (also stripped down) and actually interviewed the designer to point out various design features and improvements of the new Eco-mill... And then show some footage (maybe time lapse) of one of these machines being built and tested in Davis and throw up some ball bar test plots and footage of 1 micron sensitive DTIs running along granite inspection bars etc. etc. I think if they did that then that would go a long way to dispel a lot of the "Ghosts" that have been haunting the ecoline of the past.

Personally I think the NEW ecoline might be worth taking a risk on (if that's your thing) but from a moral point of view I think the burden of proof should be on them... NOT the "prospective buyer"... That's why folks have cold feet with the new ecoline as DMG MORI have failed (as yet) to make their case or prove the point that an ecoline 1100V is worth taking a risk on. They have the resources to do that so why haven't they? If they want to sell these machines and gain market share they have to "Man up"...


I think the other problem is "eco mill" $110K ish? Vs base price NVX5100 $140K base price ... For a business what would you take a risk on? NVX probably overkill for some, but one of the best machines out there... OR Eco Mill still risky / sketchy until proven otherwise for $30K difference? OR pick another brand? Most people that don't want to buy an NVX will seek another brand. The other thing that I find very confusing about the eco line concept is that "Eco" anything stands for "economy (grade)" not "Eco" as in ecologically friendly. So the design of the "Eco" models is very flashy... Which leads one to believe if they are "flashy" and "economy grade" then the impression that they are "Junky" instantly forms in the mind's eye... i.e. not real. I think if they made the design much crisper, and honest, almost with one foot in the original Dura Vertical design then the overall concept would appear to be more credible perhaps... I.e. not so contrived. I wish they had a different "moniker" than "eco"...

DMG MORI is an awesome brand. Unfortunately it looks like the ecomill is junk.

To me it's a symptom of what happens when premium builders attempt to make machines that compete in the "commodity" market.

The duravetical is a great machine. It was cheap because it was old iron with no frills. The ecomill is cheap because they cut corners.

I've had some hands on time with a *new* ecomill. It cuts well, but not amazing. Start investigating the design, and I doubt it will hold up to long-term abuse. Look at the tool changer with its two servo setup. Look at the missing spindle chiller. Look at the frame design that is very similar to the MC40V which was abandoned by Okuma.

boosted said:

DMG MORI is an awesome brand. Unfortunately it looks like the ecomill is junk.

To me it's a symptom of what happens when premium builders attempt to make machines that compete in the "commodity" market.

The duravetical is a great machine. It was cheap because it was old iron with no frills. The ecomill is cheap because they cut corners.

I've had some hands on time with a *new* ecomill. It cuts well, but not amazing. Start investigating the design, and I doubt it will hold up to long-term abuse. Look at the tool changer with its two servo setup. Look at the missing spindle chiller. Look at the frame design that is very similar to the MC40V which was abandoned by Okuma.

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I think that's a really interesting observation... Their desire to get into the "commodity" market as you say... In their analysis they would hope to sell five, ten or twenty commodity machines for every NVX class of machine... and hence hope to gross more in the base of the market. Its the overall bottom line and hopeful projections...

BTW if you don't mind me asking do you think the head is usefully more rigid ? Or after a moderate crash might be hard to re-align properly?

OP.. Don't even think about buying a DMG.

m98custom1212 said:

OP.. Don't even think about buying a DMG.

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C'mon, man, that's a weak reply.
If you're going to tell someone, "..don't buy it!", at least give a reason or two.


Rex

Alright, the sex appeal aside, it sounds like they have some catching up to do as far as proving their reliability, and I'm not certain I want to be on the leading edge of that curve.
I'm not a high volume production facility, won't need to be operating at the limits of the machine to drive down cycle times for maximum efficiency. I do womb to tomb design, engineering, and fabrication for one off designs for the theme park industry here in Orlando. The important factor for me is to be able to have very quick access to the high end techniques. Since I get to design the product, then build it, I typically get to design to my known capacity. But I'm growing to a place where in starting to get fab work from other designers who are pushing my capacities.

My budget is 70-100k. I see that I can get travel dims of 40ishx20ishx20ish in that range.
What do you guys think of investment in 4th and 5th axis? I have seen the need for 4th axis, not so much for 5th. But I wonder if it's a "get it and they will come" scenario.
What are the features that you guys would consider essential in a new vmc? What do you consider "yuppy conveniences"?

BTW, I love this board so far, was up until 3 am last night digging In and really looking forward to learning all I can from you guys. It really is a small community and in general, you guys are really forth coming with insight and information. I hope I can contribute soon enough rather than ask questions.

bjorn toulouse said:

C'mon, man, that's a weak reply.
If you're going to tell someone, "..don't buy it!", at least give a reason or two.


Rex

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I prefer not to go into detail because we are in process of dealing with dmg right now if he searches around he could find the posts on why i said what i said

Jodgey said:

Alright, the sex appeal aside, it sounds like they have some catching up to do as far as proving their reliability, and I'm not certain I want to be on the leading edge of that curve.
I'm not a high volume production facility, won't need to be operating at the limits of the machine to drive down cycle times for maximum efficiency. I do womb to tomb design, engineering, and fabrication for one off designs for the theme park industry here in Orlando. The important factor for me is to be able to have very quick access to the high end techniques. Since I get to design the product, then build it, I typically get to design to my known capacity. But I'm growing to a place where in starting to get fab work from other designers who are pushing my capacities.

My budget is 70-100k. I see that I can get travel dims of 40ishx20ishx20ish in that range.
What do you guys think of investment in 4th and 5th axis? I have seen the need for 4th axis, not so much for 5th. But I wonder if it's a "get it and they will come" scenario.
What are the features that you guys would consider essential in a new vmc? What do you consider "yuppy conveniences"?

BTW, I love this board so far, was up until 3 am last night digging In and really looking forward to learning all I can from you guys. It really is a small community and in general, you guys are really forth coming with insight and information. I hope I can contribute soon enough rather than ask questions.

Click to expand...

I have some insights, had/have experience/familiarity with your industry... Film/props/theme parks/museum work...

So first thing that comes to mind is what materials and what tolerances are required ? And also what is the heaviest thing that you might throw on a 40X20 mill?

Are you doing any mould work or how important is good 3d contouring to you VS. structural or prismatic type parts/geometries...?

Jodgey said:

Is there a "How to buy an entry level VMC for noobs" thread that someone could link me to?

Click to expand...

Honestly it sounds like any reasonable CNC would make you happy as it will be a big upgrade. So, personally, I'd make my decision on multiple factors including...who can supply spare parts quickly if you break something, who has a good local service team, who has top notch application engineers in my area who can help me get the most out of my purchase, and of course, can the machine do as advertised.

If you would like to see the machine first hand, we have one in our Florida Tech Center.

I think the other problem is "eco mill" $110K ish? Vs base price NVX5100 $140K base price ...

Click to expand...

FYI, the new 1100 is south of 100K for base price...

Jodgey said:

Alright, the sex appeal aside, it sounds like they have some catching up to do as far as proving their reliability, and I'm not certain I want to be on the leading edge of that curve.
I'm not a high volume production facility, won't need to be operating at the limits of the machine to drive down cycle times for maximum efficiency. I do womb to tomb design, engineering, and fabrication for one off designs for the theme park industry here in Orlando. The important factor for me is to be able to have very quick access to the high end techniques. Since I get to design the product, then build it, I typically get to design to my known capacity. But I'm growing to a place where in starting to get fab work from other designers who are pushing my capacities.

My budget is 70-100k. I see that I can get travel dims of 40ishx20ishx20ish in that range.
What do you guys think of investment in 4th and 5th axis? I have seen the need for 4th axis, not so much for 5th. But I wonder if it's a "get it and they will come" scenario.
What are the features that you guys would consider essential in a new vmc? What do you consider "yuppy conveniences"?

BTW, I love this board so far, was up until 3 am last night digging In and really looking forward to learning all I can from you guys. It really is a small community and in general, you guys are really forth coming with insight and information. I hope I can contribute soon enough rather than ask questions.

Click to expand...

Find some something used.. you will need quite bit for tooling holders and dumb shit that goes with owning a VMC.. I don't think you could find 40X20 in that price range plus holders unless you got steal on demo machine or something..

Also if you can wait I would wait till IMTS in September and I repeat stay away from DMG

cameraman said:

So first thing that comes to mind is what materials and what tolerances are required ? And also what is the heaviest thing that you might throw on a 40X20 mill?

Are you doing any mould work or how important is good 3d contouring to you VS. structural or prismatic type parts/geometries...?

Click to expand...

Typically, aluminum (6061 and 2024) and 303/304 sst. I'm not defense not gas turbine, so I don't do much with the Nickle based materials, and haven't seen titanium yet. I do plastics typically Delrin. Pretty limited, which is good for me in this case.
The tolerances are relatively loose, with the exception of a bored or reamed hole. I like to work to +-.003 even if the print calls for .010 and .030. Would love the machine to hold closer tolerance but with my inexperience with the vmc's, I don't know what can I expect a machine in this class to hold and for how long.

for machining, typically prismatic shapes. My customer is typically leveraging the various 3D printing opportunities for maya generated, mesh based model files (some really cool carbon fiber products are starting to emerge, high strength, light weight, and near tooling quality surface off the table. Typically we'll machine orthogonal structural components and skin with grown components. We have gotten into 3D printing integral structure lately with some pretty good success. . .
no mold machining, but I'd love to dig into that level of complexity at some point. obviously, I'd love my machine to have quality surfacing capacity, but I'd like to focus my limited $$$ on a rigid, bullet proof machine that won't generate a list of replaced components after 2 years of ownership.

About a year ago I bought a 2000 Yang (generic hardinge brand), 90% the same machine, for almost nothing. This year/machine would general sell for 15-20,000 I think. I can easily hold +-.003 if I take a finish pass. Maybe look at Hardinge. It really feels like a better quality machine than the Haas VF3 I run now at work. But the Haas control is much nicer. We have many Okumas at work. They seem rock solid with nice controls as well. Also Miltronics has some nice smaller VMC that are priced low.

I would also look at the Hardinge Conquest V1000 for $80k before buying the Haas. There is an interesting thread on here about this machine. There is also a rep in your area. I'll attach a link below for the specs on this machine.

Hardinge Conquest V1000

edit: GMTA Steve, you beat me, lol.

Jodgey said:

Typically, aluminum (6061 and 2024) and 303/304 sst. I'm not defense not gas turbine, so I don't do much with the Nickle based materials, and haven't seen titanium yet. I do plastics typically Delrin. Pretty limited, which is good for me in this case.
The tolerances are relatively loose, with the exception of a bored or reamed hole. I like to work to +-.003 even if the print calls for .010 and .030. Would love the machine to hold closer tolerance but with my inexperience with the vmc's, I don't know what can I expect a machine in this class to hold and for how long.

for machining, typically prismatic shapes. My customer is typically leveraging the various 3D printing opportunities for maya generated, mesh based model files (some really cool carbon fiber products are starting to emerge, high strength, light weight, and near tooling quality surface off the table. Typically we'll machine orthogonal structural components and skin with grown components. We have gotten into 3D printing integral structure lately with some pretty good success. . .
no mold machining, but I'd love to dig into that level of complexity at some point. obviously, I'd love my machine to have quality surfacing capacity, but I'd like to focus my limited $$$ on a rigid, bullet proof machine that won't generate a list of replaced components after 2 years of ownership.

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That sounds cool as hell... I'd love to find out more about that, carbon fiber and other reinforced material get quite messy... I think since my childhood I have inhaled way too much polyester casting resin and epoxies and iso-cynates to kill an elephant if administered in one dose. So would be interested in non messy / non lethal carbon fiber alternatives :-) .


A bit like what "Mori Guy" says just about any new machine in your price range should hold the tolerances you need (including Haas). Just as an aside DMG MORI are not total "arse hats"/idiots and I think they know just as well as anyone that if they screw up this line and launch of new and improved and "sorted out" Eco-mills then its game over for ecoline (at least in the USA). I think given the importance of Davis and potential market share and what they aim to achieve they have probably done due diligence and then some given that so much is at stake. The basic reality is for any new product launch is that THEY don't have any idea more than we do as to how well those machines will perform over the next two, five and ten years and exactly what types of problems will crop up. BUT I expect they have given it their best shot without making any claims that they cannot substantiate I.e. How these new "Davis Machines" will fare; but I would expect them/DMG MORI to be more than cautiously optimistic about their success and be really super mindful of supporting/rectifying any failures... Hence what "Mori Guy" says in respect of what support capabilities are in your region.

As far as 4th and 5th axis if your really need it then you really need it and if you don't then definitely wait a while IMO (others here have more experience than I on that). I have my heart set on an integrex Mazak J-200 or J-300 or I-200 simply because we can do 98% of our parts on that AND 5th axis capability (4+1) or sim 5 is really relevant and efficient to what we have to do. But if I had to split the application between two machines I could do the same ( almost ) on 3 axis mill and two axis lathe without going to 4th or 5 axis... It would be slower more tedious more custom jigs etc etc but it could absolutely be done in our case (at least with our parts)... But we have to screw our heads on straight about real manufacturing that fits our environment... so hence an Integrex... (for us at least, most probably ish :-) ).

I'm going to give you two anecdotes for DMG Mori.

If you've been using the search function you've probably already ran across me talking about our "old" EcoMill 1035. And it's first spindle bump pretty much took it out.
The 1035 was almost the price of an Okuma for the strength of a Haas (and not even Haas build quality). So you were paying or the DMG Mori name.
Maybe the new 1100V is a better machine. But of the price, I wouldn't take the risk when there are a lot of builders out there.
PM me and I'll share the info I have about a bunch of other machines (since we are looking for a machine too).

My other anecdote is that I have an acquaintance who is in charge maintenance at his shop. It's a decent sized shop with 75(ish) machines between manual and cnc. I run into this acquaintance every two to three years, and I always use the opportunity to pick his brain in his opinion of machines and builders.
Before the Mori and DMG merger I asked his opinion on favourite brand. He didn't even hesitate... he replied Mori. He stated the Mori machines they have only go down because of operator error. He's a big fan of them.
I asked him the same question recently... after the DMG-Mori merger. He just sighed and said he actually told the people above him (the ones who order machines) to please remove any DMG-Mori machines as possible candidates. He claims it is a nightmare to deal with the company when he has to. It is not worth the extra time, effort, and expense when ordering parts or getting technical info from them. Which is totally the opposite of how Mori used to be. He pretty much believes DMG is driving Mori into the ground.

We have a bunch of high end machines at work. One is a DMG Mori brand new fancy pants thing. Machine is awesome. The interaction with DMG Mori is the worst of any brand. Takes forever to give you very little technical support. Basically no value. Some machines you hope the tradeoff of crappy support of a great machine pans out. For a 40x20 VMC you don't need to make that choice.

jid2 said:

The interaction with DMG Mori is the worst of any brand. Takes forever to give you very little technical support. Basically no value.

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You get the feeling this is a terminal problem, or more to do with the fact that you bought/installed one of their more complex machines right at the same time they decided to throw their distributor situation into a shitshow?

I mean, on some level, the DMG Mori guys need to know that this merger seems to be trashing their reputation, right?