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Who makes or can make this type of machine

Badbascom

Plastic
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Location
Hondo, TX
I am starting to plant the seeds for a new machine here at work, with COVID the budget is gone but I want to be ready next time the money rains.

What I want for my next machine.

1. Large accurate jig bore accuracy type machine for large gear boxes. Boxes the 4' x 2' x 3' relatively lightweight pieces.

2. Requires holes on every side. Would love 5 axis but have not seen any on the google. Currently we have a 4 axis HMC (B axis). Our fixture is never perfect in the A-axis so we shim and we have to adjust the part in the C-axis now which is a pain.

4. I need a U-axis head or orbitec or whatever so I dont need a million boring heads for every size hole.

5. Last but most important, I want a CMM at the machine. Two independent machines are OK, at the very least an interlock so the one machine cannot move if the other is in the way. I envision a gantry type CMM straddling a jig borer. Its a pain to load and unload these parts and I sweat bullets waiting for CMM results. It would be so nice to bore a test hole slightly smaller and then have CMM tell me right then and there what my diameter and position is so I could make adjustments without any other variables to spoil my day.

What mfrs would you suggest to look at for this monster?
 
$$$$$$$$$$ Grob or Hermle
$$$$$$ Okuma or Toyoda
$$$$ Doosan or (gag) Haas??

P.S. I'm waiting for the Metrology guys to jump all over this thread saying you can't measure parts on the same machine that cut them, etc., etc. :rolleyes5:
 
My Mazak rep was telling me about a customer who bought 5 or 6 horz machines with a palletech system. All identical and one of them had probes and only measured the parts, no machining at all.
 
P.S. I'm waiting for the Metrology guys to jump all over this thread saying you can't measure parts on the same machine that cut them, etc., etc. :rolleyes5:

That is exactly why I want a separate CMM system to measure. I just don't want to have to unload the part to measure.
 
That is exactly why I want a separate CMM system to measure. I just don't want to have to unload the part to measure.

You want to CMM the part after roughing and semi-finish boring. Then have these auto download to the program on the HBM to fix the offsets.
 
That is exactly why I want a separate CMM system to measure. I just don't want to have to unload the part to measure.

Why can't you use a renishaw probe to check position and size? It's not ideal to check on the same machine you cut with....

On the other hand, a cmm is only as good as the programmer/operator IME. We bought a new Hexagon(?), had the floor tested for vibrations, put in a separate AC/climate control, the works, and the guy running it would still get different results on the same part. :rolleyes5: running the same program and tooling (aluminum parts) in a climate controlled shop...
 
1- Why do you want a U-axis head? What's most important - circularity, or size? Is there any reason that you can't interpolate, or even turn-cut these bores?

2- If you're just trying to verify a boring bar setting, why not use a probe? Believe it or not, when calibrated properly, probes are very accurate in a CNC machine. Probably even more-so with some of the newer analog-probes that are capable of scanning.

3- Why are they such a PITA to load/unload? Can you simply un-clamp the pallet, and move the whole thing to a CMM? Put lifting eyes on the pallet/fixture so that loading/unloading won't interfere with the part.
 
5. Last but most important, I want a CMM at the machine. Two independent machines are OK, at the very least an interlock so the one machine cannot move if the other is in the way. I envision a gantry type CMM straddling a jig borer. Its a pain to load and unload these parts and I sweat bullets waiting for CMM results. It would be so nice to bore a test hole slightly smaller and then have CMM tell me right then and there what my diameter and position is so I could make adjustments without any other variables to spoil my day.
If the hypothetical machine is going to be big enough to contain the metal cutting setup and CMM setup, I would propose different approach: comparative measurement. Place the Master Part in the area dedicated to CMM and, using the probing system installed on your machine, measure both, just produced part and the master part. The IN TOLERANCE decision will be made on comparison basis, independent from inherent machine inaccuracies.
Have done it in critical cases, simply works.
 
Surprisingly nobody has mentioned Deckel-Maho-Gilemeister-Mori.:stirthepot:

Integrex and Multus are also options, except the "jig bore accuracy" statement. What does that even mean? I've seen some that were made out of used tuna cans and duct tape.

R
 
Surprisingly nobody has mentioned Deckel-Maho-Gilemeister-Mori.:stirthepot:

Integrex and Multus are also options, except the "jig bore accuracy" statement. What does that even mean? I've seen some that were made out of used tuna cans and duct tape.

R

I almost did but decided to back away slowly... (fixed static table, ram style machines).

Spinner is a possibility,

I think Starrag do something a bit like what OP is wanting

Jig boring as distinct from jig grinding … Over 75 years "Jig boring accuracies" have changed a lot.

"Tuna can and duct tape" - that would be a (makeshift) lap ?

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@Badbascom what tolerances are you really after ?

When you said the parts are not heavy did you mean the table can move at least in one direction ?

(I know I'm going to regret this.).
 
$$$$$$$$$$ Grob or Hermle
$$$$$$ Okuma or Toyoda
$$$$ Doosan or (gag) Haas??

P.S. I'm waiting for the Metrology guys to jump all over this thread saying you can't measure parts on the same machine that cut them, etc., etc. :rolleyes5:

Not to be a jerk, but please don't clutter up the replies with random guesses. The first two companies on your list don't even make machines that large.
 
Why can't you use a renishaw probe to check position and size? It's not ideal to check on the same machine you cut with....

On the other hand, a cmm is only as good as the programmer/operator IME. We bought a new Hexagon(?), had the floor tested for vibrations, put in a separate AC/climate control, the works, and the guy running it would still get different results on the same part. :rolleyes5: running the same program and tooling (aluminum parts) in a climate controlled shop...

Seems so common to not understand that operating a CMM takes knowledge and experience and care, no different than being a machinist. So many places have low skilled people take a crash course on the software with no knowledge of the underlying mechanics of any of it. All the carefully perfected conditions in the world can't produce reliable results with an operator who doesn't understand the fundamental principles of the thing.

1- Why do you want a U-axis head? What's most important - circularity, or size? Is there any reason that you can't interpolate, or even turn-cut these bores?

2- If you're just trying to verify a boring bar setting, why not use a probe? Believe it or not, when calibrated properly, probes are very accurate in a CNC machine. Probably even more-so with some of the newer analog-probes that are capable of scanning.

3- Why are they such a PITA to load/unload? Can you simply un-clamp the pallet, and move the whole thing to a CMM? Put lifting eyes on the pallet/fixture so that loading/unloading won't interfere with the part.

These things all scale inversely with the size of the machine and the size of the parts. If you're making small parts to tight tolerances you can get away with a lot of things that you simply can't when working with large parts to the same tolerances.

Interpolation and on machine verification are textbook examples of this. Nothing to do with the accuracy of the probe, everything to do with the accuracy of the machine tool - linear, volumetric, geometric, and temporal. All external to the probe, all compensated predictively, if at all, nothing quantative.

All of which is equally true of a CMM - the principle difference being only that the CMM is much less exposed to external influence, and likely to be calibrated more frequently...

I do agree with you to some degree about workholding between the machine and the CMM. Zero point clamps at airy points would be about as repeatable as you could realistically achieve without sacrificing holding security - the repeatability of such an arrangement would determine if it's a viable option for OP.

If the hypothetical machine is going to be big enough to contain the metal cutting setup and CMM setup, I would propose different approach: comparative measurement. Place the Master Part in the area dedicated to CMM and, using the probing system installed on your machine, measure both, just produced part and the master part. The IN TOLERANCE decision will be made on comparison basis, independent from inherent machine inaccuracies.
Have done it in critical cases, simply works.

This is probably the most sensible pragmatic approach IMO, with it's own set of caveats - requires a machine double the required capacity, requires periodic localised calibration etc.
 
If I had a similar need, AND I had confidence that the separate issues of part distortion from heat and clamping pressure, machine distortion from internal heat and outside influences (poor foundation, other machine's vibrations, etc., HVAC localized heating/cooling) was nulled out, I would use on-machine probing, but only on a comparison basis with proximal certified standards (not a master part).

So an independent fixture that could be located in front of key features (bores, steps, orthogonalities) that mounted a previously qualified array of gauge blocks and linear features (ceramic or granite squares, for instance), then probe off the gauge master (GM), remove the GM and probe the part. The machine would still need enough inherent accuracy to not introduce a drift from the short distance from the GM to the part, but if it can't do that then it's not suitable for precision machining anyway.

When done the GM can be reinstalled and previous readings double-checked, then it could go to a separate CMM for further confirmation if desired.

This keeps you flexible (can array gauge blocks and geometry features as needed on a stable frame), keeps the measuring on machine but independently verifiable, and due to close relationship of GM to part features minimizes measuring drift due to machine geometry errors (which would be an issue with the grosser displacement when using a master part).

Or just spend the money for a laser interferometry probe that uses a measured beam path to read from a transiting probe that the machine moves around. So the machine is only a carrier, not a guarantor of accuracy.

Interferometry explained
 
I would consider something like a Forest-Line gantry type machine where the part sits still but the head moves around. We sold a decent condition five axis one that was more than big enough for your parts for $250,000 about a year ago. Moving them is a bitch though.

If you get anything frolm Caterpillar, prepare to bend over. Price can be okay but you can only use their people to move it. Make sure to bargain the price out-the-door.
 
No experience personally. But Daishin Seiki builds a decent sized Machine, with U in the Head and B-C in the actual table of the Machine. (Not a Trunniun or Rotary).

R
 
If I had a similar need, AND I had confidence that the separate issues of part distortion from heat and clamping pressure, machine distortion from internal heat and outside influences (poor foundation, other machine's vibrations, etc., HVAC localized heating/cooling) was nulled out, I would use on-machine probing, but only on a comparison basis with proximal certified standards (not a master part).

So an independent fixture that could be located in front of key features (bores, steps, orthogonalities) that mounted a previously qualified array of gauge blocks and linear features (ceramic or granite squares, for instance), then probe off the gauge master (GM), remove the GM and probe the part. The machine would still need enough inherent accuracy to not introduce a drift from the short distance from the GM to the part, but if it can't do that then it's not suitable for precision machining anyway.

When done the GM can be reinstalled and previous readings double-checked, then it could go to a separate CMM for further confirmation if desired.

This keeps you flexible (can array gauge blocks and geometry features as needed on a stable frame), keeps the measuring on machine but independently verifiable, and due to close relationship of GM to part features minimizes measuring drift due to machine geometry errors (which would be an issue with the grosser displacement when using a master part).

Or just spend the money for a laser interferometry probe that uses a measured beam path to read from a transiting probe that the machine moves around. So the machine is only a carrier, not a guarantor of accuracy.

Interferometry explained

Zeiss make a bunch of instruments for in field measurements used in aerospace (I'm sure you have seen them) with corner cube retro reflector prisms and lasers bouncing off stuff - not sure how accurate they are currently (will rummage).

Nails and hammers and problems thereof,

For me I see a software "Problem" / solution / method.

The nice thing about CMMs and separate metrology departments is the CMM has much fewer random conditions and variables acting on it. I.e. it doesn't have to cut anything.

There are many ways to measure bores in situ (especially using bore gauges ) but I guess the key problem is the controlled network or almost triangulated 'Geoid" of the constellation of bores that are correctly machined in position and orientation relative to the other bores and the part itself or key reference features and datums etc. but I think the bores being "correct" to other bores is especially important for a gear box of one sort or another i.e. the thing with the lots and lots of gears bearings and shafts has to work and work really well under extreme conditions.

Not sure how many of Op's bores are at different angles / planes to each other orthogonally or otherwise ? However,


Being reduced to,

Bore 01 : [X, Y, Z, (unit vector i, j, k ) , diameter, seating etc. , whatever other parameters you want ].

//for position and angular orientation definition and other parameters to locate critical aspects of the features , - bores etc.

Bore 02 : [X, Y, Z, i, j, k ), , , ].

Bore 03 : [X, Y, Z, i, j, k ), , , ].



Bore 25 : [X, Y, Z, i, j, k ), , , ]


So in the metrology department / CMM or whatever custom measurement rig you have... "THEY" come back with ,

Bore 01 : (ΔX, ΔY, ΔZ, Δi, Δj, Δk, Δ "this/that" , … , )

Bore 02 : (ΔX, ΔY, ΔZ, Δi, Δj, Δk )



Bore 25: (ΔX, ΔY, ΔZ, Δi, Δj, Δk )


^^^ This is taken to the CAD/CAM system where corrections are made to the program and also rotated and scaled and translated into the correct machine coordinate system. At least so the program can actually run on the machine.


^^^ Iteration 1.

Second part comes off the machine ---> Goes to metrology/ inspection ---> CMM --- > New ΔX, ΔY, ΔZ, Δi, Δj, Δk 's etc calculated

This time the computed residual errors should be smaller.

^^^ Iteration 2.

3rd part cut on the machine ---> Metrology, computation of residual errors ---> New code output to run (that also takes into account key tool compensations on the machine such as tool wear through the use of various macros.) i.e. has dynamic parameters called from the machine state that the operator is guiding that intelligently fold into the adjusted program and code that is being run (we can hope can't we ;-) ) at least debugged sufficiently so that the code is not ignoring what compensations have and or are being made by a skilled machinist.


Iteration 3.

etc.

...

In my statistical / metrological and engineering experience first iteration should reduce positional errors down to about 30% of their original magnitude,

1st iteration error reduction down to 30% of original spread(s).

2nd iteration by 15%

3rd iteration by 7-ish percent,

4th iteration by 3-ish %

5th by about 1.5 ish %

after that the adjustments (least squares iterative adjustments ) will bounce around and not be able to converge on a tighter solution , sort of reaches an asymptote as to what you can squeeze out of it in terms of precision and accuracy and universal fit and compliance in a battle with "condition equations" (theoretically how the part* geometry and key reference points and surfaces should hang together mathematically), versus the "Observation equations " - derived form actual measurements with real world errors from the CMM / inspection department.

What requires a bit of mathematical skill is the correct input of weighted initial errors ("Weight matrix" - initial guesses to begin with) so the system is not too over constrained or under defined / too permissive.

In terms of actual machining this would be very unnerving for any machinist as the actual machine coordinates are controlled indirectly by the CMM / inspection department as the machine itself is in it's own "Universe" whatever the machine is reading is not the actual values as they have been indirectly calibrated by iterative inspection procedures.

That would be pretty spooky to deal with I think. (I assume the above approach is used in high-end outfits? )

I think what OP wanted was the opposite where the machinist is driving the metrology but unfortunately the machine itself gets in the way of that...


On machine / on fixture references like what @milland might help macroscopic adjustments to all of the above and maybe the use of a thermal camera + data loggers for temperature sensors in the machine and around the environment especially vertically (different layers of air etc.). Really map things out thermally so that different programs could be run (for different temperature conditions through the day or year), or at least attempt to repeat environmental conditions. Early morning program might be different from the one you run in the afternoon with different sets of corrections that you draw upon.


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* Part geometry, not machine geometry (in this case).
 
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