Why is CNC machining so inexpensive?
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    Default Why is CNC machining so inexpensive?

    It's crazy to hear shops only getting paid $60 an hour for machine time.

    CNC machine cost
    Initial tooling cost
    Reoccurrence tooling costs
    Coolant
    Water
    Electric
    Other oils and grease
    Coolant waste treatment
    Machine maintenance and repair
    Cad software initial cost
    Cad software maintenance cost
    Cam software initial cost
    Cam software maintenance cost
    Post processor cost
    Cad and cam training
    ERP initial cost
    Erp installation cost
    Erp maintenance cost
    Erp onsite training
    Measuring tool costs
    Measuring tool certification cost


    Hell I'm tired of typing on my phone. With all those costs....why is CNC machining so inexpensive? We are all very skilled in our craft and deserve more....why must we spend thousands to make hundreds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    It's crazy to hear shops only getting paid $60 an hour for machine time.

    CNC machine cost
    Initial tooling cost - buy the cheapest crap you can
    Reoccurrence tooling costs - why do that? you already bought the stuff!!
    Coolant
    Water
    Electric
    Other oils and grease
    Coolant waste treatment
    Machine maintenance and repair - nonsense
    Cad software initial cost - pirate
    Cad software maintenance cost
    Cam software initial cost - pirate
    Cam software maintenance cost
    Post processor cost
    Cad and cam training - NOPE! better know it already by some miracle!
    ERP initial cost
    Erp installation cost
    Erp maintenance cost
    Erp onsite training
    Measuring tool costs
    Measuring tool certification cost


    Hell I'm tired of typing on my phone. With all those costs....why is CNC machining so inexpensive? We are all very skilled in our craft and deserve more....why must we spend thousands to make hundreds?

    ** some of this very tongue in cheek...**

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    Haha you mean each split of the forked tongue on each cheek side!

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Haha you mean each split of the forked tongue on each cheek side!


    I agree with your initial post 10000% BUT when it comes time to negotiate as an employee with lots of skills, it's always "well we can't pay that much - well you don't know this super obscure thing we are looking for..."

    I realize what the skill sets are, and I can understand a little bit about the machine costs and such... But I have also worked where the little smart ass remarks I made were all too real. And apparently not tied to making money or not. Was at a global place grossing 17-18? BILLION per year, but they were oh so cheap on training and such it was unreal.. Bought new software (NX) and bitched and moaned for 6 months until we got even a basic training class.... and that was questioned if both of us needed to go to it!?! Oh well another life ago now..

    *rant over*



    edit: I am behind the times, a quick google-fu shows they had a NET revenue of over 20billion in 2018!

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    And this is the reason many shop owners either A) work a full time day job somewhere else. or B) can't or don't make it.
    C) get lucky and stumble into a great customer/ contract .
    I'm sure there is a D, E, F, G, H , and so on. but these are the scenarios I have run into over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I agree with your initial post 10000% BUT when it comes time to negotiate as an employee with lots of skills, it's always "well we can't pay that much - well you don't know this super obscure thing we are looking for..."

    I realize what the skill sets are, and I can understand a little bit about the machine costs and such... But I have also worked where the little smart ass remarks I made were all too real. And apparently not tied to making money or not. Was at a global place grossing 17-18? BILLION per year, but they were oh so cheap on training and such it was unreal.. Bought new software (NX) and bitched and moaned for 6 months until we got even a basic training class.... and that was questioned if both of us needed to go to it!?! Oh well another life ago now..

    *rant over*



    edit: I am behind the times, a quick google-fu shows they had a NET revenue of over 20billion in 2018!
    It's shops with that attitude that pushed me to where I am today. I don't really understand why shops won't pay a wage that's appropriate other than trying to hit some magical number of profit percent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    It's crazy to hear shops only getting paid $60 an hour for machine time.

    CNC machine cost
    Initial tooling cost
    Reoccurrence tooling costs
    Coolant
    Water
    Electric
    Other oils and grease
    Coolant waste treatment
    Machine maintenance and repair
    Cad software initial cost
    Cad software maintenance cost
    Cam software initial cost
    Cam software maintenance cost
    Post processor cost
    Cad and cam training
    ERP initial cost
    Erp installation cost
    Erp maintenance cost
    Erp onsite training
    Measuring tool costs
    Measuring tool certification cost


    Hell I'm tired of typing on my phone. With all those costs....why is CNC machining so inexpensive? We are all very skilled in our craft and deserve more....why must we spend thousands to make hundreds?
    All that and you still don't even have a roof over your machines.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    All that and you still don't even have a roof over your machines.............
    I went with the roof first.....maybe that's my problem....

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    All that and you still don't even have a roof over your machines.............
    Or a plan of making enough money to be able to replace your existing machines when you need to...
    Or a compressor to run them...
    Or Or...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    All that and you still don't even have a roof over your machines.............
    No roof, no water lines, no 3 phase power or converters, no internet or networking, no data storage or backups, no computers, no tables, carts, saws, sawblades, hand tools, tooling materials.

    Crap then we have building insurance, product liability insurance, workers compensation insurance, health insurance, unemployment insurance.

    Maybe I should have bought a bunch of $500 CNC machines just so I could pay the insurance alone.

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    Hate to throw politics in, but back in the 90s $60/Hr. was a expensive but fare shop rate. Then if memory serves right Clinton granted incentive programs to large corporations to outsource their work overseas in Hope's corporate USA would make room to start manufacturing renewable energy products. How'd that go?
    So now that the Re-Shoring push is on, technology has improved $60/hr for base simple drill here tap there is fair. And these guys just giving away the tech secrets on YouTube setting new standards for corporate America.............well I appreciate it but also....


    Hmmmmmmmm

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    haven't heard anyone mention taxes. I wish I had a dollar for every dollar I pay in tax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Was at a global place grossing 17-18? BILLION per year, but they were oh so cheap on training and such it was unreal.. Bought new software (NX) and bitched and moaned for 6 months until we got even a basic training class.... and that was questioned if both of us needed to go to it!?! Oh well another life ago now..
    I'm in this spot now. Years ago in between jobs I paid for myself to take training for MasterCam X9. Now they expect us to use GTAC for every little thing because they are paying for it. I'm sure they don't care to answer baby questions that would be taken care of by even a basic course.

    Not to even mention how they won't even go near paying to update our out dated post processors that barely function with the new versions of the software. Which has had me looking at local community colleges just so I can take some classes on C+ and TCL just so I might have a chance at becoming even more dangerous at fumbling through our posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johneezreno View Post
    Hate to throw politics in, but back in the 90s $60/Hr. was a expensive but fare shop rate. Then if memory serves right Clinton granted incentive programs to large corporations to outsource their work overseas in Hope's corporate USA would make room to start manufacturing renewable energy products. How'd that go?
    So now that the Re-Shoring push is on, technology has improved $60/hr for base simple drill here tap there is fair. And these guys just giving away the tech secrets on YouTube setting new standards for corporate America.............well I appreciate it but also....


    Hmmmmmmmm

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I disagree with $60 an hour in today's market for even simple drill and tap. Auto mechanics, plumbers, and the like make more than that with less skill and less overhead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I disagree with $60 an hour in today's market for even simple drill and tap. Auto mechanics, plumbers, and the like make more than that with less skill and less overhead.
    Concur. Skilled labor should begin at $75/hr.

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    $60/hr won't even cover the payments on a 500mm HMC with pallet changer and 400 tools. But for a commodity size 3 axis mill or 2 axis lathe, that's probably 3 or 4 times what it actually eats.

    Folks seem to think that you need a brand new machine with brand new tooling to make anything. There's plenty of shops with tired old machines in the back corner that would be happy to squeeze $60/hr from them before they finally roll them out into the parking lot.

    You can't expect the market to pay you more just because you don't already have the tool required to do the job. That's not how it works. A customer brings you a job because you can do it. They don't bring you a job because you might be able to do it if you spent 3X the value of the entire order on tooling.

    This is the reason that money goes where money is.


    I'll put it in terms of farming. Where I live, good farm land costs $14,000 an acre or more. And crop prices are currently near 10 year lows. There's no way I could go out and buy 200 acres of farm land, a few tractors, a planter, a combine, and some wagons and have a viable business. I've been told current payback on farm land is 50 years. 50 years before the land creates a profit.

    This has created a system where the only people who can afford to be farmers are people who are already farmers with land that is paid for that they can borrow against, or huge corporations with deep pockets. Everyone else is locked out. Unless you inherit a farm, it's not viable to own one. Yet, if you already own one, you can make huge profits because you don't have the expense of buying the land.

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    That rate could very by region and cost of living vs minimum wage.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    unfortunately between programming, fixturing, tooling, coolant, machine payments, electricity, and labor. $60.00 a hr doesn't cover it all. now if you had 4 or 5 machines running at the same time, and can bill $60.00 a hr each . and 1 operator, then you may be able to do something with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss710 View Post
    unfortunately between programming, fixturing, tooling, coolant, machine payments, electricity, and labor. $60.00 a hr doesn't cover it all. now if you had 4 or 5 machines running at the same time, and can bill $60.00 a hr each . and 1 operator, then you may be able to do something with that.
    Yea, you can . Not a ton of something. But, something none the less. It beats working for the man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    haven't heard anyone mention taxes. I wish I had a dollar for every dollar I pay in tax.
    Taxes are figured in to my overhead. My overhead is also an average. There are some months my AMEX alone is $20k.
    Some months it is only a couple hundred bucks. Momma likes those months.


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