Why is CNC machining so inexpensive? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    ... so I can take some classes on C+ and TCL just so I might have a chance at becoming even more dangerous at fumbling through our posts.
    Your posts are written in C++ and tickletock ? Eek

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I disagree with $60 an hour in today's market for even simple drill and tap. Auto mechanics, plumbers, and the like make more than that with less skill and less overhead.

    For me the rate is so dependent on the job.

    Drill tap is to cheap at $60/hr is a pretty big comment.
    - Yes if a guy is tapping a tough alloy in an expensive part that needs a hand tap to get to proper depth...%60/hr is cheap.

    - load up 50 pcs alum pieces in a fixture, lock in vise hit start while removing and loading the second fixture to replace when prior cycle is done and being able to load another machine or two without breaking a sweat, little wear on machines and tool, easy setup, simple for any operator on an older machine with customers materail...$60/hr is not a bad number.

    -super critical angle and tolerance in unubtanium...$60/hr is not going to cut it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    For me the rate is so dependent on the job.

    Drill tap is to cheap at $60/hr is a pretty big comment.
    - Yes if a guy is tapping a tough alloy in an expensive part that needs a hand tap to get to proper depth...%60/hr is cheap.

    - load up 50 pcs alum pieces in a fixture, lock in vise hit start while removing and loading the second fixture to replace when prior cycle is done and being able to load another machine or two without breaking a sweat, little wear on machines and tool, easy setup, simple for any operator on an older machine with customers materail...$60/hr is not a bad number.

    -super critical angle and tolerance in unubtanium...$60/hr is not going to cut it.
    You deserve more. A plumber with his ass crack hanging out is making more per hour than you with less overhead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Concur. Skilled labor should begin at $75/hr.

    IS it the skilled labor or the work that is produced that should set the rate.


    I had a job a few years back were I needed MIG welding...simple welds. A guy came in certification up the ying yang...while great to have, the welds only paid $5,00 each and only so many can be done in an hour. I was doing plenty fine with the two guys I had taught to weld a couple days earlier.

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    For me, the roof over the machines has been the most expensive part.

    Thanks to the pot industry for driving the cost of prime rural manufacturing real estate and rental rates through the fucking roof.

    The pot industry is crashing full speed into the mountain currently though so I guess that's one good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    IS it the skilled labor or the work that is produced that should set the rate.
    Good question. I'd say it hinges upon the work produced because that dictates skill required and rates charged. If I need a 165t crane and they only have a 250t in the yard, they bill me the 165t rate despite actually sending the 250t unit and we both win. Their crane isn't idle and I'm not paying unduly.

    In both examples it's frustrating to have a more highly valued asset doing less valuable work, but it's better than the alternatives in my opinion.

    Also- that's the billable rate as shop owner, not what you're paying the laborer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    A plumber with his ass crack hanging out is making more per hour than you with less overhead
    Yeah, but at least we don't have to dig around in old poo ....

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    Man, making me feel bad now. My primary job is building and servicing sewer inspection equipment. Sometimes it comes back full of fecal ick. Lol. And plumbers may charge big dough but they sure as heck don't want to pay.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Haas pumping out how many machines each year ?

    And going into Ma & Pa 2 car garage backyard shops....all in the "race to the bottom"


    Easy fix, Wear a Condom next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Haas pumping out how many machines each year ?

    And going into Ma & Pa 2 car garage backyard shops....all in the "race to the bottom"


    Easy fix, Wear a Condom next time.
    We welcome that race to the bottom. That's how I buy my used machines cheap with low hours!

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    Quote Originally Posted by johneezreno View Post
    Man, making me feel bad now. My primary job is building and servicing sewer inspection equipment. Sometimes it comes back full of fecal ick. Lol. And plumbers may charge big dough but they sure as heck don't want to pay.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Reminds me this:
    Friend of mines brother in law was working at home depot... One day a customer had returned a toilet.... The customer took a shit IN said toilet before bringing it back to the store..

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    We welcome that race to the bottom. That's how I buy my used machines cheap with low hours!
    Yup, the clueless just use mastercam, get a number for runtime, slap $45 per hours
    and quote.
    Like everyone else does.

    I work with a small shop, I explain how he needs to develop different methods, maybe pinch turn (might have to weld up a lathe toolholder for $50)
    to "get away from the crowd" and get these jobs. Sneak an extra roughing
    cut with a welded toolholder, cut that cycle time.

    Keep the machines loaded, re-position the saw, so 20' bars of stock
    are not being swung wildly overhead.

    Institute piecework, 'cause every time I walk in the shop the minimum wage monkeys are on their phones, the machines are idling, and the red lights are blinking for more stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yup, the clueless just use mastercam, get a number for runtime, slap $45 per hours
    and quote.

    I work with a small shop, I explain how he need to develop different methods, maybe pinch turn (might have to weld up a lathe toolholder for $50)
    to "get away from the crowd" and get these jobs.

    Institute piecework, 'cause every time I walk in the shop the minimum wage monkeys are on their phones, the machines are idling, and the red lights are blinking for more stock.
    That was my biggest fear when I started my own shop. Blinking machines with staff no where to be found or not working. I solved this by getting rid of minimum wage and hiring skilled folks that can do more better.

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    It all comes down to supply and demand.
    When people are starving because of lack of work they will work for less.
    Just ask the labor force in China how this works.
    Even if skilled there is more supply than demand so prices sit at rock bottom barley able to survive numbers.
    Arguably cncs make things less skilled than in the past so the day of all manual machines saw better money.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by johneezreno View Post
    Hate to throw politics in, but back in the 90s $60/Hr. was a expensive but fare shop rate. Then if memory serves right Clinton granted incentive programs to large corporations to outsource their work overseas in Hope's corporate USA would make room to start manufacturing renewable energy products. How'd that go?
    So now that the Re-Shoring push is on, technology has improved $60/hr for base simple drill here tap there is fair. And these guys just giving away the tech secrets on YouTube setting new standards for corporate America.............well I appreciate it but also....


    Hmmmmmmmm

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I would be curious to know who the leaders of the "large corporations" were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Haas pumping out how many machines each year ?

    And going into Ma & Pa 2 car garage backyard shops....all in the "race to the bottom"


    Easy fix, Wear a Condom next time.
    Well if you aren't doing 2D vise work you don't have to participate in that "race."

    Not much of a race around here anyway. Everyone is so damn busy, some of my customers will pay 100%+ expedite fees to get something in 2 weeks rather than 4.


    Haas pumping out machines doesn't necessarily mean tons of garage shops starting up all over. Plenty of large shops around here buying them 5 or 10 at a time. They're a good value.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Haas pumping out machines doesn't necessarily mean tons of garage shops starting up all over. Plenty of large shops around here buying them 5 or 10 at a time. They're a good value.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    I am a ma/pa garage shop trying to start up. I've been watching for my chance to jump on a HAAS with probe. Those dang larger shops buying them up 5 or 10 at a time is what's keeping the damb resale price so damb high.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    $60/hr won't even cover the payments on a 500mm HMC with pallet changer and 400 tools. But for a commodity size 3 axis mill or 2 axis lathe, that's probably 3 or 4 times what it actually eats.

    Folks seem to think that you need a brand new machine with brand new tooling to make anything. There's plenty of shops with tired old machines in the back corner that would be happy to squeeze $60/hr from them before they finally roll them out into the parking lot.

    You can't expect the market to pay you more just because you don't already have the tool required to do the job. That's not how it works. A customer brings you a job because you can do it. They don't bring you a job because you might be able to do it if you spent 3X the value of the entire order on tooling.

    This is the reason that money goes where money is.


    I'll put it in terms of farming. Where I live, good farm land costs $14,000 an acre or more. And crop prices are currently near 10 year lows. There's no way I could go out and buy 200 acres of farm land, a few tractors, a planter, a combine, and some wagons and have a viable business. I've been told current payback on farm land is 50 years. 50 years before the land creates a profit.

    This has created a system where the only people who can afford to be farmers are people who are already farmers with land that is paid for that they can borrow against, or huge corporations with deep pockets. Everyone else is locked out. Unless you inherit a farm, it's not viable to own one. Yet, if you already own one, you can make huge profits because you don't have the expense of buying the land.
    I live in a farming county and know a bunch of families that inherited the land- and- "huge profits"? not likely. Of course, you cant compete if you have to buy the land at current prices- but, even with inheriting the land, it costs a LOT of money to farm these days. A single blueberry harvesting machine is $200k or so- my neighbors have 3 or 4, plus a fleet of trucks, a dozen tractors, and a few tens of thousands of square feet of barns- not to mention thousands of packing trays, conveyor belts, packaging machinery, and so on- and, at 300 or 400 acres of blueberries, its not much more than a hobby busienss, in terms of income, most years. Other neighbors of mine grow high end potatos, and get maybe 15,000 pounds per acre- and farming a thousand acres of that is a really tight business, with no guarantee of profit.
    More and more, we are seeing mostly foreign investors buying thousands of acres at a time, and not really expecting to "make a living", more like park money away from dictators or higher taxes abroad. One of the big recepients of Trump subsidies to make up for chinese tariffs was a brazilian company- not a family farm. And, curiously, a bunch of congressmen get big farm subsidies too. Mapping The U.S. Farm Subsidy $1M Club

    Farming is even harder not to go broke in than machining.

    I would propose that one of the reasons small machine shops cant bill very high is because they are still in the 19th century job shop piecework mode, which was a system designed by big corporations. If you arent adding value, and selling that value, rather than a bit of processing on a piece of metal, you are never gonna get ahead.
    Especially as a general purpose job shop.

    I have known a few very specialized shops- say, a shop that only worked with machining ceramics, or one that did medical titanium- but just making parts is a real tough row to hoe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Well if you aren't doing 2D vise work you don't have to participate in that "race."

    Not much of a race around here anyway. Everyone is so damn busy, some of my customers will pay 100%+ expedite fees to get something in 2 weeks rather than 4.


    Haas pumping out machines doesn't necessarily mean tons of garage shops starting up all over. Plenty of large shops around here buying them 5 or 10 at a time. They're a good value.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    I'm one of those shops haha.

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    Those dang larger shops buying them up 5 or 10 at a time is what's keeping the damb resale price so damb high.
    The're getting quite popular over here in China as well. The resell value on a 3 year machine is within 20-30% of a new one.

    haas-delivery.jpgdsc_0003.jpg


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