Why is CNC machining so inexpensive? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    The're getting quite popular over here in China as well. The resell value on a 3 year machine is within 20-30% of a new one.

    Attachment 269169Attachment 269170
    Nice! That's how it's done! How fast do you guys get machines up and running from the official install date? Standardized table setups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Your posts are written in C++ and tickletock ? Eek
    That's NX for you. Built on the corpse of the ancients.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Concur. Skilled labor should begin at $75/hr.
    Finding skilled labor is very hard in my area to find. Now we seem to hire bottom feeders because that is all that is available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    Finding skilled labor is very hard in my area to find. Now we seem to hire bottom feeders because that is all that is available.
    I disagree with this statement.

    If you make it known you are paying top dollar for the skilled labor...they will move. You cant find skilled labor for not skilled labor price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    Finding skilled labor is very hard in my area to find. Now we seem to hire bottom feeders because that is all that is available.
    Is finding skilled labor the problem or paying for skilled labor the problem? Even medium skilled employees want 60k a year. Add bennies, taxes, n such that individual is costing the company 30-40 bucks per hour just for starters.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Wage times are changing.... minimum wage in lots of places are $15 an hour and shops are still thinking they can keep paying their button pushers $10-15 an hour and complain when the employees leave for the shop down the street for $0.10 more an hour.

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    Funny, these guys think it expensive:
    Why is cnc machining so expensive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    That's NX for you. Built on the corpse of the ancients.
    I could understand C - it's standard, everyone teaches it, been around forever, reliable. But C++, that's a zebra of a different color. Even Stroustrup admits it was a bad idea

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I could understand C - it's standard, everyone teaches it, been around forever, reliable. But C++, that's a zebra of a different color. Even Stroustrup admits it was a bad idea
    C# is my favorite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Funny, these guys think it expensive:
    Why is cnc machining so expensive?
    Because they are either major trolls or retarded.

    Sendt fra min EML-L29 med Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy887 View Post
    I would be curious to know who the leaders of the "large corporations" were.
    General Motors comes to mind. Roger Smith, president of GM at the time closed 13 plants in Michigan and moved them all to Mexico. Ford and Chrysler weren't far behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Nice! That's how it's done! How fast do you guys get machines up and running from the official install date? Standardized table setups?

    Interesting you should ask. When I was contracted on there we build a solid model based around VF-2SS's, VF-5SS's, DT-1's, UMC-750's and SL-30's. every thing is lined up in rows on two floors and has a modular track electrical system that can have a line dropped in less than 30 minutes without shutting down power to the other machines. Air is the same way with just using ball valves. The way the contract is worked out with Haas since Star buys so many is they must keep one of each palleted and ready to ship (Exept the UMC thanks to US Department of Homeland Security). They way money is bank transferred in China is I have a USB key and just plug it in and the transfer is instant. If I order a machine at 5PM it will be sitting in the parking lot at 8AM the next morning with the rigger. I've got the installs down to less than 4 hours from the time its off the truck until the break in cycle starts.

    As far as table setups, there is a method to the madness. Certain machine sections have Mighty Vac-Magic tables while some have hydraulic pallets. Then some have a 5" thick ABS sacrificial sub plates so parts can be super glued down or two sided tape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I could understand C - it's standard, everyone teaches it, been around forever, reliable. But C++, that's a zebra of a different color. Even Stroustrup admits it was a bad idea
    IDK, I've written a few posts in NX Post Builder, and never once run into a line of C++.

    The whole Post Builder (and new Post Configurator) system is based on a heavily extended version of TCL/TK. I wouldn't write an OS in TCL/TK, but it is one of the easiest languages to learn rapidly, has plenty of power for anything you would ever want to do with a post processor, and is widely regarded as one of the best languages for quickly and reliably gluing more complicated systems together (like say, CAM system to a CNC controller...).

    NX is in a sort of slow, somewhat messy, transition from the old Post Builder system to the new Post Configurator. As such, Post Builder is getting a bit creaky in the keel as Siemens invests all their time in the new system (that still has a couple of years of catching up to do). Even so, they looked at the reality and stuck with TCL as the core language. Given that NX is often used to program some seriously complex/custom/advanced machines, I'm going to say they probably had solid reasons for going this route, since this would have been the obvious time to ditch TCL for something else.

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    I'm interested in these abs tables. Would you mind sharing more photos of the operation there??

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    For me the rate is so dependent on the job.

    Drill tap is to cheap at $60/hr is a pretty big comment.
    - Yes if a guy is tapping a tough alloy in an expensive part that needs a hand tap to get to proper depth...%60/hr is cheap.

    - load up 50 pcs alum pieces in a fixture, lock in vise hit start while removing and loading the second fixture to replace when prior cycle is done and being able to load another machine or two without breaking a sweat, little wear on machines and tool, easy setup, simple for any operator on an older machine with customers materail...$60/hr is not a bad number.

    -super critical angle and tolerance in unubtanium...$60/hr is not going to cut it.
    how long did it take to make that fixture?

    how long before the customer takes the part to the next low bidder.

    Yeah, I charged 60 bucks and hour for CNC time..................in 1992.............on a 10 year old cnc knee mill.


    sometimes I do jobs for less than I should

    but planning in CNC for 60 an hour is suicide

    even if you do it yourself you need to budget for an employee

    even if you work in your garage you need to budget for rent

    even if the machine is paid off you need to budget for a new machine


    at 60 an hour you are simply an employee of your customer

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I'm interested in these abs tables. Would you mind sharing more photos of the operation there??
    Can't say as the ABS, but we routinely glue down .002-.005 brass shim and mill it. Our process -

    facemill chunk of aluminum
    'scuff' up a bit with scotch brite
    clean with acetone
    spray glue onto fixture (use a cardboard/paper shield to keep glue form getting everywhere!)
    shoot glue with air for a couple seconds
    apply shim stock
    use large (3/4-1") pin/precision dowel to "roll" shim flat
    wait for glue to dry then machine

    Of course this all done with .007" - 1/16" endmills, not sure how it would hold up with larger endmills

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    We do some 2024 aluminum sheets that are .06 to .09 thick on the router and I'd like to just run smaller sheets.

    I'm curious how the glue holds up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I disagree with this statement.

    If you make it known you are paying top dollar for the skilled labor...they will move. You cant find skilled labor for not skilled labor price.
    How do you determine what to pay a person based on what they say in an interview or how fancy their resume is? I have a hard time listening to people self praise themselves in interviews. I can't tell you how many people I have interviewed think they are programmers because they can edit someone program or took a 2 week course. One problem I see is people over value themselves on what they think is skill. We even test people on the floor at a machine where they claim to see a set up operator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    How do you determine what to pay a person based on what they say in an interview or how fancy their resume is? I have a hard time listening to people self praise themselves in interviews. I can't tell you how many people I have interviewed think they are programmers because they can edit someone program or took a 2 week course. One problem I see is people over value themselves on what they think is skill. We even test people on the floor at a machine where they claim to see a set up operator.
    As well as...during work.

    Hire a slacker, looks at phone all day, will bring down the others, regardless of pay level.
    "Why should I hustle, when Fred there makes the same as we do, and makes 1/2 the output as we do"

    Implement some form of piecework, incentive, whatever, tied to an individuals performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    How do you determine what to pay a person based on what they say in an interview or how fancy their resume is? I have a hard time listening to people self praise themselves in interviews. I can't tell you how many people I have interviewed think they are programmers because they can edit someone program or took a 2 week course. One problem I see is people over value themselves on what they think is skill. We even test people on the floor at a machine where they claim to see a set up operator.
    The way we do things is in the interview we ask questions about prior employment and things they did not what they do.

    Oh you worked at ABC, tell me about the shop and what you did there and what other employees did...what could be done better there?

    If they give short answers and done describe things well, they probably aren't a fit for my company. That's just my personal preference.

    Also we will negotiate a pay and I will almost always offer a provisional phase of 90 days where we agree on $28.50 an hour, I'll pay $24 an hour and at the end of 90 days I'll pay a bonus as if you worked for the 28.50 an hour and change your new base pay yo 28.50. if performance is better than we expected, we round that up to the next thousand.

    If the check is $1140, I'll write the check as $2000 as a thank you.

    May not work for your company but that's how things are done here.

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