Wiper insert for better finish in AL?

xyzzy · Nov 4, 2020

Greetings -

I have a 4" Sandvik 6 insert facemill (RA590-102R38A-11M) that I use for finish passes on 6061/7075. There are a lot of threads on different approaches to better finish (remove inserts, etc.) but not much on using a wiper insert. Anyone have any experience or suggestions dropping in a single wiper? If you do, how much addition Z do you give the wiper (Sandvik recommends .001-002) and do you vary feeds and speeds?

Thanks! Jon

Wsurfer · Nov 4, 2020

xyzzy said:
Greetings -

I have a 4" Sandvik 6 insert facemill (RA590-102R38A-11M) that I use for finish passes on 6061/7075. There are a lot of threads on different approaches to better finish (remove inserts, etc.) but not much on using a wiper insert. Anyone have any experience or suggestions dropping in a single wiper? If you do, how much addition Z do you give the wiper (Sandvik recommends .001-002) and do you vary feeds and speeds?

Thanks! Jon

I've been curious about what people consider a "good finish" and how it is quantified. Is it cosmetic or measured Ra,etc. The only face mill I've used is a 2" ripper mill, which is more of a roughing tool.I'm getting an Ra of 4 on my finishing path. I'm getting an Ra of 9 on the walls using a yg-1 1/2" alupower. How good can you get with a dedicated finishing tool ?.

litlerob1 · Nov 4, 2020

xyzzy said:
Greetings -

I have a 4" Sandvik 6 insert facemill (RA590-102R38A-11M) that I use for finish passes on 6061/7075. There are a lot of threads on different approaches to better finish (remove inserts, etc.) but not much on using a wiper insert. Anyone have any experience or suggestions dropping in a single wiper? If you do, how much addition Z do you give the wiper (Sandvik recommends .001-002) and do you vary feeds and speeds?

Thanks! Jon

Wiper Inserts can cause problems with BUE. Aluminium has issues with BUE. Why compound the issue?

What are your current Feeds and Speeds? For a light finish pass in Al I'm not apposed to running every rev a Machine has. At least the math is easy for a 4" anything. But I'll turn it until it's dangerous.

R

chad883 · Nov 5, 2020

I use sharp, polished inserts. Increase the coolant concentration, spindle speed is the key here. In my experience it is not always go as fast as you feel safe. The insert will probably handle all the speed you can give it, but harmonics come into play also. The parts I run are for our own product line and are more about cosmetics than actual finish numbers. Cutting oil is best, but not practical on a mill (tried that and it sucks). I have ran a 4" face mill anywhere from 2000-8000 RPM on the same machine, just have to find the harmonic sweet spot.

DouglasJRizzo · Nov 5, 2020

I've never used them in mills, but I have used them in lathes on aluminum parts. I had Mitsu inserts and they seem to be happiest around 800 - 1000 SFM.

precisionmetal · Nov 5, 2020

IMO, the finish "potential" is highest for an insert with wipers. I believe that it ends up being not only the inserts (and how accurately each tip is compared to the others), but also spindle quality, coolant type/amount, and of course how smoothly the machine can travel.

On my Haas in my home shop, I've found that getting all the inserts level within .0001" or better makes a huge difference. I use polished carbide inserts with a relatively "flat" cutting edge (though not a true wiper).

FWIW: This is my "reference" sample for something cut in a "somewhat" conventional machine (not a universal diamond machine like Precitech or Moore). Unattainable in what I have access to now.

Blank is 6063 Al, 5 PCD inserts with wipers, microscopic amount of MQL, can't remember feed rate, but it was not super slow. Cut on a Mikron 600 by one of the guys in a shop from a previous life.

Mike1974 · Nov 5, 2020

precisionmetal said:
IMO, the finish "potential" is highest for an insert with wipers. I believe that it ends up being not only the inserts (and how accurately each tip is compared to the others), but also spindle quality, coolant type/amount, and of course how smoothly the machine can travel.

On my Haas in my home shop, I've found that getting all the inserts level within .0001" or better makes a huge difference. I use polished carbide inserts with a relatively "flat" cutting edge (though not a true wiper).

FWIW: This is my "reference" sample for something cut in a "somewhat" conventional machine (not a universal diamond machine like Precitech or Moore). Unattainable in what I have access to now.

Blank is 6063 Al, 5 PCD inserts with wipers, microscopic amount of MQL, can't remember feed rate, but it was not super slow. Cut on a Mikron 600 by one of the guys in a shop from a previous life.

View attachment 303795

No way! I think this guy photoshopped this...

(badass btw)

edit: Please delete this. If one of my bosses see this I'll be chasing that unicorn forever. :bawling:

CarbideBob · Nov 5, 2020

I'll go with .001 to .002 proud on a wiper. Intentional high and huge federates.
The thin under a wiper can for sure make BUE worse.
A cutter/insert designed for steel in a wiper will load and be crap in AL.
PCD not the same as HSS or carbide.
Bob

xyzzy · Nov 6, 2020

Thanks for all the suggestions and great photo to aspire to precisionmetal.

I think I am pushing the tool too hard for great finish - 2000SFM and .0024 IPT. Based on some of the suggestions I'll walk it up from a much slower base and measure each pass for Ra. Will post results when done.

Mtndew · Nov 6, 2020

You have the Century face mill, do yourself a favor and get some PCD inserts for that.
We easily get 4 micro on our finishes in 6061.

Oldwrench · Nov 6, 2020

Have you considered trying Kyocera cermets for face milling? They don't care whether you're cutting aluminum or steel and you don't even need coolant.

This part isn't anywhere near as nice as Precisionmetal's aluminum example (plus my camera was out of focus) but it's a 3-insert 2-1/2 inch Kyocera face mill in continuous service since 1981, in steel, DOC .100", no coolant. Not even a finish cut. Nothing trick or exotic, in fact it's quick and dirty just to get a decent bearing against a Delrin rubbing block. Part was taken right off the shelf where it had been for about a year. Point is, you can make it look like chrome if you take the time, and in aluminum no problem.

In my opinion it's not so much a question of whether to use wipers (although I'd say yes, definitely) as it is the resistance of the insert material to BUE.

xyzzy · Nov 6, 2020

Mtndew - I have access to PCD inserts if we could get that finish. What F&S do you use in 6061, and do you bother with a wiper? Thanks - Jon

Orange Vise · Nov 6, 2020

Aren't you able to dial in each insert individually with the Coromill 590? Wipers are generally for cutter bodies that don't have that feature.

CarbideBob · Nov 6, 2020

Orange Vise said:
Aren't you able to dial in each insert individually with the Coromill 590? Wipers are generally for cutter bodies that don't have that feature.

What?.....

Orange Vise · Nov 7, 2020

CarbideBob said:
What?.....

It's not that a single wiper can't be used in the R590, it's just that it might be redundant/unnecessary if all the other inserts are dialed in within a tenth.

Big Kaiser Speed Finisher - same concept.

Orange Vise · Nov 7, 2020

xyzzy said:
Mtndew - I have access to PCD inserts if we could get that finish. What F&S do you use in 6061, and do you bother with a wiper? Thanks - Jon

Have you talked to your Sandvik rep?

Sometimes an otherwise excellent finish can be spoiled by chip dragging/BUE. PCD should help eliminate this.

Are you currently running thru spindle coolant?

Reps will often look at your application and parameters and provide tooling on a guaranteed test basis.

Mtndew · Nov 17, 2020

xyzzy said:
Mtndew - I have access to PCD inserts if we could get that finish. What F&S do you use in 6061, and do you bother with a wiper? Thanks - Jon

No wiper. I run it at 8k rpm (8344sfpm) and .004" ipt. (192 ipm)

We have this facemill RA590-102R38S-11M

As for the inserts, R590-1105H-PR2-NL CD10

These inserts are NOT cheap! But they last forever when you're only taking a light finish pass.
We indexed our inserts after around 10k parts ran only because we've never had inserts last this long and figured we've got our money out of them at that time.

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