Is it worth it to learn how to manually program or CAD/CAM? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    I played with it at IMTS this year. It's not any better in person. I personally don't see a use for it, as is.

    I asked the guy if I could purposely try to break it, throw weird stuff at it, try to make it crash the machine, etc, he said go ahead.

    I said "Athena, offset tool 6 1 inch in Z"... "Oh, it can't make offsets"... oh...

    "Athena, load program 1002"... "Oh, it can't change programs"... oh...

    I don't remember everything I threw at it, I just went with the most common stuff you do when running a VMC.... It basically couldn't do any of the common stuff, but it was great at showing you manual pages to find help, which was kind of neat, I guess...

    The one thing I was impressed with was the noise cancellation/voice recognition technology. Even with all the machines running around us (I'd say it was about 2/3 as loud as a real shop), it never misunderstood anything I said, so I'll give them that.
    That's about what I figured. But in defense of the program. Rockies (nothing personal Eric) they think they need to start somewhere.

    "Athena, go to pornhub" probably doesn't work either, so useless for me.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    That's about what I figured. But in defense of the program. Rockies (nothing personal Eric) they think they need to start somewhere.

    "Athena, go to pornhub" probably doesn't work either, so useless for me.

    R
    You mean rookies in the rockies *

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________


    * I think I still have a brain... unless I left it in the Arby's in Raton between NM and CO (lol).


    ++ Personally I think Makino are maybe worried that the Fanuc control may ultimately "Cramp" their ambitions with a younger generation of engineers/ decision makers , but I think Fanuc is doing a good job playing "catch-up" in that department as best as it can. Still a mystery (to me) why MAKINO think it's the near-future / put a lot of wood behind that ? [Given the context of the overall discussion of 'Finger-cam" vs. CAD/CAM (priorities + integration).].

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    You mean rookies in the rockies
    No, perfect example though as I posted from my phone and it was soooooo intuitive, when I typed "progressive techies", it spit that out. Sorry.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    No, perfect example though as I posted from my phone and it was soooooo intuitive, when I typed "progressive techies", it spit that out. Sorry.

    R
    Don't worry I still have shed loads to learn but on the edge of a lot of stuff that I need to kick the door in on one or two fronts.

    I thought SIRI* had a kind of call center, like if the AI-ish brain can't give you a satisfactory answer isn't the question or quire(sp) re-directed to Mumbai where there is a human being "googling" on your behalf and then types the answer ?


    I have to admit the speech recognition (like what Teachme says) has really come along in leaps and bounds.

    It used to be in computer science circles 15 years ago the phrase "How to recognize speech" gets mangled to "How to wreck a nice beach"... So semantic (meaning based systems) that's pretty critical and machines are not very good at generalizing things or guessing the most likely context while dodging the "Gotchas". The classic for AI is the (idiomatic phrase)

    " Time flies like an arrow"**

    ---> For a machine AI there about 15 different interpretations (hard to teach machines common sense)… (There are these mystical time-flies that fly just like an arrow, OR You have to time the flies in the same manner as an arrow would … And many other permutations that the AI parses weirdly but[IBM's] Watson seems to have about a billion of those Gotchas pummeled into it kinda spooky really.



    Google itself is still really bad at that IMO. Text based correlation vs. what the meaning of what is wanted to be searched for... [That one will probably be cracked somewhere on the porn frontier in cyber space.].


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __


    * My wife at her last job could play audio books while doing data entry, so pretty f*cking hysterical listening to SIRI reading "50 shades of Grey " (the whole E-book, when both SIRI was new and 50 shades (kinda lame/ but funny))... The emphasis is totally wrong with the speech synthesis / contextual semantic stresses that are needed. Very "Wooden" delivery. (No double entendres there.).

    ** Time Flies Like an Arrow; Fruit Flies Like a Banana – Quote Investigator

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Grab the last DOS Bobcad - I think it was 14 ? - draw up your parts then use Blobcad to grab the geometry values. Saves you a bunch of trig but you can still consider it hand coding. The trig is the part that takes forever.

    btw, that version of the Bob is the fastest cad program for 2D I have yet seen. Way quicker than the Windows versions.

    When you're done with that we'll start you on APT
    The trig and calculations are a piece of cake, because I’ve been using AutoCAD for eons. Even using the conventional dimensional labeling tools in Cad was too slow, I wrote a small macro that allows me to pick any point, and it will label the X and Y coordinates of that point. So I spend 20 minutes drawing my part and labeling points...

    ...and four hours painstakingly copying each of those points into G-code. 🤬

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    You should know g-code so you can manually edit programs if you need to CAD/CAM is the way to program nearly anything however it is way faster so you should learn them both at the same time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins909 View Post
    I'm trying to figure out what I should learn first. With CAD/CAM it's so complex that it would be very difficult to edit manually. Programming manually would be useful for simple parts. I'm talking about programming on a Haas with G/M Code or learning Fusion 360 as I've had a hobby license for a while, jut never actually got into learning it. I bought some books for Fusion 360 almost a month ago hoping to teach me the basics but haven't even opened them. (I have a shelf of books that I do this with) Shop currently doesn't have a CAD/CAM but I think they're working on it. Even if it's a different program, I will have some knowledge. Although for all I know if could be in a week or they're just looking into it.

    Thanks,
    Higgins909

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    I agree with the previous statement about hands-on tutorials vs. books; the latter is a waste of time in comparison.

    Fusion 360 has lots of good ones, and be prepared to spend a lot of time getting up to speed on the 3d modeling.

    I haven't used it yet, but the CAM module is supposed to be very good, based on a well-regarded commercial package; I forget which.

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    Sounds pretty simple to me, your shop doesn't have any cad/cam, so g-code it is!!!! Then when you're dazzling them with all teh things you can do, and they decide to spend the money on some cad/cam software, your name will be the only one in the hat!!!
    We use Mastercam because they gave us a dozen seats for free, but you can email them and they will give you their demo software to play with, and there are a ton of youtube tutorials online too, until they send you to school and after that.
    FYI: a lot of the guys here use the mastercam and often have to edit the gcode output from it, but also input g-code directly into the machine, and use macros extensively! they have to program a lot of extra things too when we have pallets getting sent to the load stations and or tooling ID's that report back when they have reached their end of life, it gets real busy here when theres an FMS system involved or hydraulic fixturing.
    Learn the G-code, when company has the money, they will likely send you to school.

    Good Luck and buy Toyoda!!!

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    If anyone thinks that in 10 years there will be a lot of top shops hand coding CNC machines, they are wrong. If you can program CAM, know how to interpret to code, and even edit the post processor, you win. Those are the truly valuable CNC technologists.

    Come on...Fusion 360 has already brought basic CAM to the masses and that trend is only going to continue. I dont even bother hand coding because even if i did, I could just go into Mastercam and post a simple component's program within 5 minutes and have a sip of my coffee while Im doing it. Just because someone can write a super refined and optimized hand-coded program at the control doesn't mean I also can't write a faster, better program in Mastercam that saves the company time and money with things like Dynamic Milling and optimizing feeds and speeds, corner rounding, Misc variables and parameters, the list goes on. The program might have 10,000 lines of code compared to 100. Why would I care? My controller has 10,000 block lookahead...

    You still need to be able to interpret the code to know what changes need to be made to the post processor though

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    If anyone thinks that in 10 years there will be a lot of top shops hand coding CNC machines, they are wrong.
    Never mind 10 years in the future. 10 years ago I was surprised that there were still people hand coding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    I'd say that you at least need to know/understand the basics of finger banging..
    When it comes finger banging im an absolute pro.

    Im alright at hand code too

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    .
    overtime adds up. i went from a job at $27.70/hr with no overtime to a job at $23.70/hr with over time and my pay went up over $30,000/yr
    .
    dont matter if you have difficulty with the math, it is what it is. my last 5 YEAR AVERAGE yearly pay as a cnc operator is easily $10,000/yr more than my previous job at a higher hourly pay cause that job had little overtime.
    .
    cnc operators often work a lot more overtime than a programmer. obviously it depends on where you work how much overtime they allow you to work. i have often seen a cnc programmer get a fixed salary at $57,000 year and cause its salary they made nothing extra for working over 40 hours a week. they actually made less per year when they went from hourly pay (with 150% overtime pay) to a fixed yearly salary pay
    .
    my biggest problem is putting as much in 401k and HSA accounts as i can to get the tax savings so i am not in so high a tax bracket
    .
    i worked a programmer and operator job then went to just a operator job and my end of year pay increased $10,000 first year and now $38,000 MORE per year after 5 years. my point is overtime adds up. often job with a lot of overtime pays a lot more than a higher hourly paid job with less overtime. many places programmers work less overtime than operators. and many places programmer does not make a lot. check indeed salary website on what programmers typically make. USA average is about $60,000/yr and web site does not factor in overtime pay
    .
    in 6 years i got easily over $300,000. more in 401k cause between maxing out 401k contribution and 401k increasing from whats already in it at roughly 6% a year. my math says i'll be a millionaire by age 65 maybe by 64. and being a millionaire will happen a lot earlier working as a cnc operator than as a programmer.
    .
    when worse problem is what to do with all the money i am making its not the worst problem to have. i would rather be a millionaire as a cnc operator than be a poor cnc programmer. and yes Excel can calculate compound interest math quite easily and fast. i recalculate exactly how much over a million i will have at age 65 ever week and recalculation takes less than 1 second
    .
    if you want to learn something i would say learn compound interest math first
    Tom understands compound interest, but not marginal tax rates.


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