1964 FP2 horizontal spindle adjustment - Page 2
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    These are good questions for Franz Singer. "Should I make this spacer thinner to reduce the radial play of the rear bearing? How many microns of radial play should I have in this rear bearing?" Put a couple of photos in your email as well so he knows exactly what you are asking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    NSK has a superb spindle bearing reference document available here. There is a whole chapter on mounting tapered-bore roller bearings. My Acieras use that type of arrangement for the bearings at the spindle working end. The Aciera manuals say to leave a tiny amount of radial clearance, whereas NSK suggests having a small amount of preload for bearings at the working end.
    Many thanks, already downloaded and saved!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    These are good questions for Franz Singer. "Should I make this spacer thinner to reduce the radial play of the rear bearing? How many microns of radial play should I have in this rear bearing?" Put a couple of photos in your email as well so he knows exactly what you are asking about.
    Exactly Bruce,

    after all these measurements I think I have solid questions for Mr. Singer. I'll put an email together today if workload allows for it. Will let you know!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hi to all,
    1. I think that the collar is possible to have been ground thinner. Grind marks on the two faces are not similar and it also measures uneven all around, from 4.76 to 4.80mm. Here is one face:



    and here is the opposite face:

    This face shows signs of grinding on a cylindrical grinder.



    Also, chamfer is smaller in the former face than the latter.

    This face has been ground on a surface grinder, possibly as part of the original manufacturing process or referring to your post #19 where you discovered that the faces are not parallel, this face has been probably ground down for some reason.
    Hi Deckeleers,

    Thanos, just for information on how to get a spacer like this, which should be exactly parallel, to be exactly parallel.

    You will need to have a surface grinder available and grip a flat plate on the magnetic chuck. Then measure the out of parallelism of the ring and with the true face placed on the plate (assuming that the side showing the cylindrical grinding witness marks is the true face). Bring down the wheel to just touch the high point of the untrue face. The toolmaker`s tip here is to put some "Stuarts" marking out blue, as used in scraping, on the high point so that as the wheel is carefully lowered the marking blue will be removed by the wheel before cutting metal.

    Then, lower the wheel by a couple of tenths of a thou and instead of using the handwheels to advance the table, use your fingers to grip the ring and pass it under the wheel and by rotating the ring slightly at each pass until there are no more sparks and the grinding marks are uniform over the surface of the ring, when you measure the width again the faces will be perfectly parallel!

    This is what I was taught at Matrix (Coventry Gauge & tool) during my apprenticeship there.

    Nowadays Health and Safety would frown on this practice and you should be very careful not to get your fingers trapped under the wheel and I still have all of mine!

    Sorry no big flashy photos to explain this but i`m snowed out of my workshop at the moment and hope that this verbal explanation is enough for most of you, except perhaps for the diamond that has a very short attention span, you know who I mean!

    Bye the way, I should say that if grinding more than just the out of parallel metal from the face, then remove the excess metal by normal surface grinding and leave the thickness half a thou plus before carrying out the procedure above. another thing that should be done is to check the reference face for flatness as the heat generated during excessive grinding can deform and soften thin rings so take it easy or use coolant.

    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by bentley1930 View Post
    Hi Deckeleers,

    Thanos, just for information on how to get a spacer like this, which should be exactly parallel, to be exactly parallel.

    You will need to have a surface grinder available and grip a flat plate on the magnetic chuck. Then measure the out of parallelism of the ring and with the true face placed on the plate (assuming that the side showing the cylindrical grinding witness marks is the true face). Bring down the wheel to just touch the high point of the untrue face. The toolmaker`s tip here is to put some "Stuarts" marking out blue, as used in scraping, on the high point so that as the wheel is carefully lowered the marking blue will be removed by the wheel before cutting metal.

    Then, lower the wheel by a couple of tenths of a thou and instead of using the handwheels to advance the table, use your fingers to grip the ring and pass it under the wheel and by rotating the ring slightly at each pass until there are no more sparks and the grinding marks are uniform over the surface of the ring, when you measure the width again the faces will be perfectly parallel!

    This is what I was taught at Matrix (Coventry Gauge & tool) during my apprenticeship there.

    Nowadays Health and Safety would frown on this practice and you should be very careful not to get your fingers trapped under the wheel and I still have all of mine!

    Sorry no big flashy photos to explain this but i`m snowed out of my workshop at the moment and hope that this verbal explanation is enough for most of you, except perhaps for the diamond that has a very short attention span, you know who I mean!

    Bye the way, I should say that if grinding more than just the out of parallel metal from the face, then remove the excess metal by normal surface grinding and leave the thickness half a thou plus before carrying out the procedure above. another thing that should be done is to check the reference face for flatness as the heat generated during excessive grinding can deform and soften thin rings so take it easy or use coolant.

    Alan
    Hey Alan,

    thanks for the advice, this is very useful stuff. Sadly I can't put these tips to direct use since I don't have a surface grinder or even have access to one. However, as was the case with all my tools, it's nice to gather knowledge so that you are ready when the time comes!

    My idea on how such operation would take place is by using the residual magnetism of the chuck (or just lightly 'turn it on'), so that even if you don't have a reference surface to lay on the chuck, you wouldn't pull down as hard as to distort something. Lightly grind to establish a reference, then flip and work as usual.

    Anyhow, it seems that there a million things to look after (e.g. the heating issue you mentioned), I guess I might get to address them at some point (if I ever get a grinder).

    BR,
    Thanos

    P.S. it's strange...the face of the collar that you identified as being ground on a cylindrical grinder, I would have imagined that it was ground exactly as you described (or similar), by rotating before each pass on a surface grinder.

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    After a really pressing last week, I finally just made it to send an email to F. Singer and ask for advice....
    Let's see how this will turn out...

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hey Alan,
    P.S. it's strange...the face of the collar that you identified as being ground on a cylindrical grinder, I would have imagined that it was ground exactly as you described (or similar), by rotating before each pass on a surface grinder.
    Hi Deckeleers,

    Thanos, well spotted! You are quite right those are not cylindrical grinding marks but as you said surface grinding.

    In order to find the reference face of the collar you could mount it on the spindle which should be placed between centres and using a dial indicator determine which face is running true.

    The difference between using the hand feeds to grind the face of the collar or keeping them static and feeding the collar between the wheel and the chuck by hand is that any inaccuracy in the slideways is eliminated.

    Unfortunately the people that really know their Deckels inside out do not post on this forum! I mean Singer of course. Hopefully you will receive a reply but it would be more probable via the Bruce/Singer hotline.

    Alan

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    Hi Thanos,

    I had a telephone chat with Franz and Igor Singer. Franz apologises, he did not see your email or he would have answered it promptly. (They looked through their email queue and couldn't find it, so I ended up resending the copy you gave me.) Here are the answers:

    (1) Front bearing is perfect at 1 um. Leave it as is.

    (2) Rear bearing should have essentially NO radial play. So you should reduce this to around 1um, plus or minus. Franz said to grind down the spacer in 10 micron steps, keeping track of the radial play as you go. This process will also reduce/eliminate the out-of-parallel in that spacer, which he said is not really a worry but should be eliminated.

    (3) Axial play should be about 3 microns. Franz said that first you grind the spacer as described above to get the rear bearing radial play correct. Then to adjust the axial play you simply tighten the outer nut as needed, no further grinding is required.

    (4) Franz said that when you tighten the nut that holds the rear bearing in place, this compresses two "Tellerfeder" (I think this is a "Bellville washer in English, it's a compression spring shaped like a dished washer). Franz said that you really need to get this TIGHT. He said to strike the wrench with a 1 kilo hammer. Don't fool around, get this TIGHT.

    (5) When putting on the outer ring, Franz said to tighten it up by hand, then loosen it and retighten, but don't overdo this one.

    I hope this makes sense to you, because not having looked at the guts of the spindle I don't completely follow this myself. In any case Franz recognised it instantly.

    (By the way, I asked Franz if it would be OK for me to put the info here, and he said "of course".)

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 02-14-2019 at 09:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi Thanos,

    I had a telephone chat with Franz and Igor Singer. Franz apologises, he did not see your email or he would have answered it promptly. (They looked through their email queue and couldn't find it, so I ended up resending the copy you gave me.) Here are the answers:

    (1) Front bearing is perfect at 1 um. Leave it as is.

    (2) Rear bearing should have essentially NO radial play. So you should reduce this to around 1um, plus or minus. Franz said to grind down the spacer in 10 microns steps, keeping track of the radial play as you go. This process will also reduce/eliminate the out-of-parallel in that spacer, which he said is not really a worry but should be eliminated.

    (3) Axial play should be about 3 microns. Franz said that first you grind the spacer as described above to get the rear bearing radial play correct. Then to adjust the axial play you simply tighten the outer nut as needed, no further grinding is required.

    (4) Franz said that when you tighten the nut that holds the rear bearing in place, this compresses two "Tellerfeder" (I think this is a "Bellville washer in English, it's a compression spring shaped like a dished washer). Franz said that you really need to get this TIGHT. He said to strike the wrench with a 1 kilo hammer. Don't fool around, get this TIGHT.

    (5) When putting on the outer ring, Franz said to tighten it up by hand, then loosen it and retighten, but don't overdo this one.

    I hope this makes sense to you, because not having looked at the guts of the spindle I don't completely follow this myself. In any case Franz recognised it instantly.

    (By the way, I asked Franz if it would be OK for me to put the info here, and he said "of course".)

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Hey Bruce,

    thanks so much for this! I also thought that they would have answered promptly had they received the email properly but I am sure your getting in the way helped the communication!

    Regarding technical issues:

    1) Great!

    2) Good that the he confirmed the procedure we had already decided on! Now...10 um grinding steps, that's gonna be tricky for me...

    3) Axial play, ok, will set it at the end

    4) And I thought that 100 Nm were a lot...(you mention two spring washers, there is only one there, I guess a typo, right?)

    5) Noted

    Great piece of information, thanks so much about this....

    BR,
    Thanos

    PS. Please thank Mr. Singer for this next time you talk to him. It helped a lot in my case, might help others in the future as well. It also enriches the database of wisdom in this sub-forum and enhances understanding of these machines. Very valuable pieces of information.

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    So, it seems that all I have to do is find a way to reduce that spacer a bit in width.

    - I will do as Ross suggested, measure the taper on the lathe and get a rough estimate on how much I need to remove off the spacer to get my radial play back in spec. However, I am afraid this can only be a very rough estimate since we are talking about um here and flexes and what not, so I fear linearity in these calculations is not something one could rely on.

    - Main problem, of course, is how to grind the spacer in steps and check for every iteration, since I don't have a surface grinder.... I am considering three options right now; 1,2 involve external help, 3 is about doing it all in house:

    1. Accept the generous offer of a good friend with a grinder in top condition to help. So, I am thinking about turning a soft spacer in steps of 0.01 mm as Mr. Singer specified, till I get my radial play within spec. This will be the target dimension that will be used by my friend for the grinding of the original spacer. Inaccuracies in the turned spacer would not matter that much (as Mr. Singer himself suggested), the spacer will be compressed flat I guess. (the original spacer might need to be ground a hair thinner than my soft turned test spacer to account for compression of the soft spacer)

    2. Accept the offer of the same friend to grind a set of new spacers in steps. I'll turn some spacers, harden and temper them, and then have him grind them down in 0.01 mm steps as Singer suggested. So, I'll have enough to play with, hopefully one of them will do.

    3. Dust off the round mag chuck I have (another friend found that for me), make sure it's business end is flat and mount it on the four jaw. Spend half a day dialing it perfectly flat along lathe's cross slide and use it to toolpost grind the spacer. I have a dremel, a pen-type die grinder and a pneumatic die grinder, I think only the last one is a proper candidate for this. I need to check it's bearing though and make sure it is up to the task and do a couple of tests of course to establish optimum settings (stone type, width of the dressed flat etc), I might need some advice here. I think this might work, having the benefit of course that I can do the machining and testing all in house, save time and momentum! I must say that I haven't tried toolpost grinding for actual parts that matter and, also, that my lathe isn't perfect. But, even a not-perfect cross slide I think can't introduce that much error on a part that only 10-15 mm thick in OD-ID.

    3a. Soft jaws and very light pressure might also work for this if the mag chuck is not up to the task.
    3b. Would there be any reasoning in trying to hard turn the part? I have some CBN inserts that could be used here but plain carbide would also turn it I guess. Haven't tried that either, for such levels of precision....

    How does this sound?

    BR,
    Thanos

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    If you do not have a grinder you could replace the spacer with a soft one of some decent material and scrape it flat , parralel and to thickness using a surface plate and a 0,001mm indicator And time

    I also got some decent results removing a couple of Mu from a spacer and keeping it parralell by placing the spacer on the lathe and hold some waterproof sandpaper on a flat piece and pressing that against the spacer while the lathe is slowly turning (200 RPM ?)
    Checked it and it stayed parrallel Removed a total of 0.02mm IIRC Corrected it once by scraping

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    If you do not have a grinder you could replace the spacer with a soft one of some decent material and scrape it flat , parralel and to thickness using a surface plate and a 0,001mm indicator And time

    I also got some decent results removing a couple of Mu from a spacer and keeping it parralell by placing the spacer on the lathe and hold some waterproof sandpaper on a flat piece and pressing that against the spacer while the lathe is slowly turning (200 RPM ?)
    Checked it and it stayed parrallel Removed a total of 0.02mm IIRC Corrected it once by scraping

    Peter
    0.02 mm sounds great Peter, might not have to go much further than this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    (you mention two spring washers, there is only one there, I guess a typo, right?)
    That was my mistake, but not a typo. The problem is that Franz speaks Bavarian, a language loosely related to German, which I find challenging at times (:-).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    That was my mistake, but not a typo. The problem is that Franz speaks Bavarian, a language loosely related to German, which I find challenging at times (:-).
    I totaly agree
    I find it challenging every time even Hoch Deutsch is not his cup of thea

    Peter

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    Thang:
    Forget the "tool post" grinding. None of the proposed wheel heads have the needed precision. They will just make an ugly part, fling grit into your lathe and in short produce an unsatisfactory part.
    Would make a soft steel setup spacer using your lathe and soft jaws bored properly to fit the OD of the spacer...Undercut the jaws to allow indicating the back face through the center hole to
    verify flat when re-chucking to change the spacer thickness ...Final finishing as Peter suggests by lapping using a flat backing of some fine coated abrasive, testing with an outside micrometer or test indicator on a surface plate to verify flatness.
    Flat here is important in that it will give an accurate gauge to copy.(see below)

    Once you have the spacer at the proper thickness that gives the correct radial clearance of the bearing...then get your friend with the grinder to replicate the thickness on the hardened original spacer....

    Cheers Ross

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    BTW
    SKF and FAG have documentation of how to adjust and install these kind of bearings
    Clean is everything
    I also found that after some time the bearings have the tendency to get tighter
    I adjust to about 0.01mm play Run it for a while and then see what play I have
    Then adjust some more if need be

    There is no need for a hardened spacer here As long as it is not a part of the thrust bearings at least (Didn`t I see that once ????)
    I saw plenty soft onces on other machines

    On some spindels you can leave the spacer out Set the correct play Take the spindle out and measure the gap with gauge blocks

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    Hi guys,

    sorry for the late reply, but I've been sick and busy last days, not an ideal combination...

    Bruce, thanks again for all the info and the clarification regarding the number of locking rings. So, no issues here.

    Ross, thanks for the tip regarding the toolpost grinding, I was fearing that would be the forum's recommendation. I think I'll just go for turning a shoft spacer and work my way off there.

    Peter, thanks for the tips. I think I'll indeed go for a soft spacer to begin with and establish dimensioning. For completeness though, I'll get the actual spacer ground to the established width and put it together at some point.

    I'll post updates when I start working on this again.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    That was my mistake, but not a typo. The problem is that Franz speaks Bavarian, a language loosely related to German, which I find challenging at times (:-).
    Hi Deckeleers,

    Having worked in several european countries and even the US of A a couple of times, I found that communication can be challenging!

    You think that you can speak English? Then a visit to Glasgow in Scotland will prove otherwise. You think that you speak German? A visit to Bayern will prove otherwise! You think that you can get by in French? A visit to Brittany, Switzerland, or a French colony will prove this otherwise.

    There are two types of people, those that want to communicate and those that can`t.

    Above all, what I would like to hear is a technical conversation between Peter from Holland and Franz singer from Bayern, Now that would be a laugh wouldn`t it!

    Alan

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    Why would that be a laugh You asume my German is a bad mix of Dutch and German ??? Sorry to disappoint you but my German is above average So you probably would understand what I say better as what Franz says
    Assuming you speak/understand Hoch Deutsch

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Why would that be a laugh You asume my German is a bad mix of Dutch and German ??? Sorry to disappoint you but my German is above average So you probably would understand what I say better as what Franz says
    Assuming you speak/understand Hoch Deutsch

    Peter
    Hi Deckeleers,

    Peter, as this forum has yet to aspire to talkies then I suppose that we`ll have to take your word for it!

    When William of Orange, the Dutch nobleman, was invited to assume the English throne in 1689 and became William 111, he had many problems in communicating with the English court, which gave birth to the saying "speaking double Dutch". This has entered the English language as meaning "not understandable".

    Having worked in Holland three times, I have noted that the Dutch, when speaking English, have rather a strange gutteral pronunciation resembling their own language and I presume that this is the same when they are speaking German!

    So give it to us straight! Was Franz unable to understand your Dutch Hoch Deutsch or did you not comprehend his low Bavarian accent?

    Alan
    Last edited by bentley1930; 02-21-2019 at 07:22 AM.


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