Advice and help for my "new" Deckel FP2 (build in 1965)

After a long time of watching and waiting I recently bought a 1965 Deckel FP2. This is the one where the motor is enclosed in the cabinet base and the speed and feed adjustments have round dials on the side with the little wheels underneath that make them turn. The work envelope is 500 mm x 200 mm x 400 mm.

The mill was VERY dirty but seems sound underneath all the gook and came with literally a half-ton of accessories and spare parts (like new dust-cover bellows) in two Deckel cabinets. The previous owner was a professional machinist who had it stuck in the corner of his garage near his wood lathe. It was covered everywhere with greasy saw-dust.

One interesting discovery is that the machine was painted green by the company that bought it, when it was new. The green paint is flaking off in sheets. Underneath is the original factory paint (grey) in perfect condition. So the caterpillar could turn into a butterfly!

It came with the original German-language owners manual and parts list. My German is OK but not great --- I was wondering if someone here could help me get an English-language one. I have read about a CD that someone put together - if this covers my FP2 could I please get a copy?

I removed the vertical head and the horizontal head underneath it and started the process of cleaning and changing the oil, which in places has turned into some kind of jelly. The only damage I have found so far is (1) the spring-steel wiper just behind the main long drive gear on top is bent (probably because someone tried to remove the horizontal head in the wrong direction) and (2) there were some metal chips "welded" into the hand-wheel bevel gear used to drive the Y-axis back and forth. After cleaning and removing those chips, Y feels smooth.

Question 1: I noticed that the long gear on top is free to move about 0.050" back and forth in the axial direction (along its shaft). Is this play normal? Or does it mean that the bronze bushings on one or the other side need to be adjusted? Or is a spacer needed on one or the other side?

Second question: the instruction manual suggests using kerosene/paraffin/petroleum to clean the old oil out of the gear box. Is it straightforward to open up the gearbox so I can clean the gunk from the bottom of it, or should I just flush it with kerosene and refill the oil? I have the same question for the small region on top that houses the bevel gears described above.

Finally, it would be helpful for me to understand how oil flows through the drive and feed gearboxes, could someone tell the the path, or is there an illustration somewhere?

B.

Some of my response is from memory. Been some time since i have been inside a first generation FP2, so take any info with a grain of salt.
Believe the long gear has plain bushings at each end that support it and allow it to rotate on a hollow axle that the "y" Axis screw moves through.
.050 end float sounds excessive. The hollow axle is held in place with a straight slot screw at the headstock end of the main casting.
There is a pressed in plug in the face of the middle top of the box ways that allows through access and removal of the axle and then the gear.
My belief is that the bushings in the gear are flush to the gear face. The end float is controlled by the end of the "Y" axis screw at the rear and
a spacer at the front....
Something in that chain is worn i would wager, however not sure it will cause any real issues....end float on a spur gear with plain bushings should cause little to worry about
unless the movement is enough to allow the gear to run into other parts....

Removing the side covers from the gear cases is a bit of a chore.....You will have to get access to the operators side of the main vertical casting.
This will require removing the outer panel.
To do this you will have to remove the small taper pins in the spindle and feed gear selector levers/cranks....all 4 of them.
The panel is retained by hidden bolts under the gear change "crank" position plungers....
The "Y" feed hand wheel and rapid levers need to come off as well. As will the "Y" clamp lever and gauge block nest block.....

Once the panel is off the gear case covers can be removed....Some caution is needed here as there are shift forks that must engage the sliding gears in the gearboxes. Removal is easy. Replacing
the covers requires getting everything to find its proper gear...
Also be careful with the setup in the cover. The crank and gear fork positions have a specific timing relationship....if taken apart and not returned exactly the shifting will not work correctly.

The lubrication scheme is pretty simple. Everything is splash....
Spindles unlike early FP1's are both grease lubricated .
There is a catch trough inside at both sides of the "Y" slide casting. There are cotton wicks that lay in the troughs and capilate oil up and over into feed grooving to lube the ways of the "Y" slide.
On older machines this wicking is often dirty and not able to wick the oil into the ways properly. I would replace this ...un waxed candle wicking works perfectly. Be sure not to extend the wicking
below the face of the slide....Should be applied so that the wick is doubled back at the slide with the loose ends in the trough....

I use a good quality of Hydraulic oil for both gear boxes. AW 46 to be specific....

The member here that has the DVD is "Wrench" and i believe it covers what you seek....There are two books. One for the operator and another for parts.

Cheers Ross

ballen said:

Question 1: I noticed that the long gear on top is free to move about 0.050" back and forth in the radial direction (along its shaft). Is this play normal? Or does it mean that the bronze bushings on one or the other side need to be adjusted? Or is a spacer needed on one or the other side?

Second question: the instruction manual suggests using kerosene/paraffin/petroleum to clean the old oil out of the gear box. Is it straightforward to open up the gearbox so I can clean the gunk from the bottom of it, or should I just flush it with kerosene and refill the oil? I have the same question for the small region on top that houses the bevel gears described above.

Finally, it would be helpful for me to understand how oil flows through the drive and feed gearboxes, could someone tell the the path, or is there an illustration somewhere?

Click to expand...

For me, the axial play you noticed on the long gear is not abnormal.

That play, anyway, is not really adjustable.
Ross's description of the mounting is correct, except the end float is not controlled by the y screw. The y screw is attached to the horizontal ram and fixed on these machines. There are adjustment screws in that area, but these are for adjusting the axial play of the y bronze nut.
If memory serves, theres a sort of bushing (I say "sort of" because the hollow axle does not spin in it) at the front end, held in the casting bore by a set-screw. It's this bushing and the position of the hole in wich the set screw engages, that defines the radial play of the long gear.

It is my experience that too little play (and I don't mean "interference fit" nor even 0,01 or 0,02mm !) can lead to litterally seize the long gear very quickly when running the machine at high speed.
Please don't ask me how I know

As for lubrication, although I don't think the manual mentions it, there should be a particular position of the headstock ram, when the drivetrain will "lift" oil from the main gearbox, up to the lubrication channels on both sides of the ram (where cotton wicks takes oil to lubricate the slides).

On the FP1 machines, this position is when the scale on the side of the headstock indicates "25mm".
I don't know for the FP2, but you probably could determine that position by running the machine without the vertical head and observe the oilflow (make sure to put a glass plate on top of the dovetail to prevent the machine from repainting your ceiling !)
This video will get you an idea of what I mean : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaAi0yFCWEo

AlfaGTA said:

Some of my response is from memory. Been some time since i have been inside a first generation FP2, so take any info with a grain of salt.

Click to expand...

Ross, thanks for the quick and helpful reply! Do you also own one of these FP2s?

I agree with you that 0.050" of axial play seems like too much, on the other hand it comes against bronze bushings at both ends, so I don't think it will matter in practice, except that I can imagine it might make the drive train noisier than it should be.

My belief is that the bushings in the gear are flush to the gear face. The end float is controlled by the end of the "Y" axis screw at the rear and a spacer at the front....

Click to expand...

At the front, I can't see any spacer. Do you have one? If so, that part is missing in my case. It would be easy to make a washer from sintered bronze to control the float, and it sounds like I could easily install this by removing the spacer plug from the end. Or perhaps if I pull out the pressed-in plug at the front vertical box ways, I'll see that it's easy to control the flat of the bronze bushing at the front.

At the rear, I can't see how the Y-axis screw (which is INSIDE the hollow axle) can control the float of a long gear which is riding on the OUTSIDE of that axle.

Unfortunately the parts manual doesn't really have enough detailed drawings showing how the different parts fit together and work. It just has some sketches, followed by a long list of named parts. Nothing like a full exploded diagram.

Maybe there is one on the CD. Does that cover 1st generation FP2s?

Removing the side covers from the gear cases is a bit of a chore.....

Click to expand...

It sounds like this is only an hour of work, so not so bad. But if I do it, I'll make a point to keep track of the relative fork/dial positions and make lots of photos as I go.

The lubrication scheme is pretty simple. Everything is splash....

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed instructions. Is there *other* wicking that I should be looking to replace while I have the top area open and accessible? Or just wicking from the Y slide casting?

I use a good quality of Hydraulic oil for both gear boxes. AW 46 to be specific....

Click to expand...

I've gotten a few liters of ISO 46 Hydraulic oil and ISO 68 bedway oil, and some general-purpose bearing grease.

By the way, my machine has 2 oil-pump injectors in the side compartment, but clips for 3, so perhaps one is missing. Are 2 normally used for oil, and 1 for bearing grease?

The member here that has the DVD is "Wrench" and i believe it covers what you seek....There are two books. One for the operator and another for parts.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll send him a note!

Cheers,
Bruce

Bruce:
TNB above gets the details on the long gear and its location correct. I miss-typed on my response, meant to say that the gear was controlled at the rear by the "Y" screw nut....
At any rate sounds like you have most under control...
My current FP2 is like yours...motor in the base. Built i believe about 1963 or so....
Do not think there is any additional wicking on that machine.......besides the material in the two catch troughs in the "Y" slide.
If you are taking things apart consider replacement of the oil seal that goes on the output drive shaft for the oil pump...they seem to be a constant source of seepage....

As to Oil guns, one for way oil,(ISO 68) one for machine oil (AW46 for hand wheels feed chain etc.) and one for bearing grease..(vertical head upper bearing Zerk, and Zerk fitting on the lower "Z" axis hand wheel casting).......
Spindles require disassembly to lubricate, and special grease Kluber "Isoflex Supertel" . Some care and tools needed here!
Not looking at my machine so might have forgotten something......

Best thing i ever did for my FP2 (besides fitting the mechanical spindle brake) was fitting up a "Bijur" style one shot lube pump to replace the oil fittings on the side of
the vertical slide.....
Operating instructions call for filling the sight glasses at each side of the vertical slide (Z) through the two oil "Zerk" style fittings on the non operators side of the slide before each days use....
This takes quite a bit of oil, and means that usually you will be filling the oil gun with every other use of the machine.
Got tired of that drill, along with the constantly leaking oil gun in the side compartment. I replaced the "Zerks" with banjo fittings and lube lines with feed checks to a one shot lubricator that had some real oil capacity.
The feed checks are of different flow capacity because the sight glass on the operators side takes lots more oil to fill due to the fact that the oil going there feeds other components like the screws feed clutches etc....

Also have my machine fitted up with Heidenhain scales and a 3 axis Positip 850 readout.....Milled a pocket into the bottom of the "X" axis slide to allow the scale to nest and be out of the way of the trip dogs....

My machine has also been re-scraped on the vertical slide and "X" axis....with Turcite added on the flat way of the "X" slide. (the one that supports the weight of the table)....
Also i would suggest replacement of the vertical way wipers....this is something that should be done on a regular schedule to keep sensitive surfaces well.

Cheers Ross

Hi Ross,

Do not think there is any additional wicking on that machine.......besides the material in the two catch troughs in the "Y" slide.

Click to expand...

According to the parts list, this is two pieces, 4mm diameter, 100 mm long. So I just ordered 1 meter of 4mm cotton wicking, will simply replace the existing material with new.

If you are taking things apart consider replacement of the oil seal that goes on the output drive shaft for the oil pump...they seem to be a constant source of seepage....

Click to expand...

Thanks, good to know. I assume you mean the seal on the drive shaft of coolant (not oil) pump, right? Have you got a part number? I've looked in my parts list and am not sure where this is. It might be the Dichtring 2200 04 000892 00 which is listed just after the Vorschubgetriege, but I'm not sure.

As to oil guns, one for way oil,(ISO 68) one for machine oil (AW46 for hand wheels feed chain etc.) and one for bearing grease..(vertical head upper bearing Zerk, and Zerk fitting on the lower "Z" axis hand wheel casting).......

Click to expand...

My question is, which gun should be used for which lubricant? There is a large gun and then two smaller ones. The two smaller ones are distinguished only by the "output" end: one has a pointed fitting, the other has a mouth fitting. Which of the three is meant for grease, which is for bedway oil, and which is for gear/bearing oil? The instruction manual is mute on this point.

Spindles require disassembly to lubricate, and special grease Kluber "Isoflex Supertel" . Some care and tools needed here!

Click to expand...

Indeed I found some detailed instructions on the web, and have decided that this will have to wait until I am done with the more basic stuff before carefully measuring the play and even thinking about this.

Best thing i ever did for my FP2 (besides fitting the mechanical spindle brake) was fitting up a "Bijur" style one shot lube pump to replace the oil fittings on the side of the vertical slide.....

Click to expand...

This sounds worthwhile, and the one-shot lubricators don't cost much. Again, I'll put this on the "to-do" list when the machine is back together and in use.

Also have my machine fitted up with Heidenhain scales and a 3 axis Positip 850 readout.....Milled a pocket into the bottom of the "X" axis slide to allow the scale to nest and be out of the way of the trip dogs....

Click to expand...

Mine came with 3 Heidenhain LS 803 glass scales that were very professionally fitted and a Heindenhain VRZ 753 display. Unfortunately the scales have virtually no seals left (they are crimped in and not replaceable) and the display is also not working correctly. So I will probably just get a new Easton or Sino replacement.

My machine has also been re-scraped on the vertical slide and "X" axis....with Turcite added on the flat way of the "X" slide. (the one that supports the weight of the table)....

Click to expand...

I haven't yet had a close look at the supports. I did notice that the last inch or two at the bottom of the Z-travel are tighter than the rest, and checked to be sure it wasn't anything obvious like the sheet-metal cover blocking the motion. Will probably need to remove the vertical slide to have a good look at the ways and find the culprit.

Also i would suggest replacement of the vertical way wipers....this is something that should be done on a regular schedule to keep sensitive surfaces well.

Click to expand...

I took off all the vertical wipers and cleaned them, they seemed to be in good shape, I have the impression that they have been replaced and maintained over the years. However the machine has no Z-axis bellows, although it does have the X and Y bellows (AND came with spare new bellows for X and Y).

I noticed that in the pictures from 1965, the Z-axis bellows are unprotected. But it seems like the new bellows have got a set of overlapping steel plates protecting it. I am told that these will fit the machine, can you confirm that? Or do you not have the Z-axis bellows?

Cheers,
Bruce

PS: I tried sending a PM to "wrench" to ask about getting the CD. But not sure if the message got through, my browser window locked up after hitting the send button.

Hi TNB,

Thanks for the reply!

For me, the axial play you noticed on the long gear is not abnormal.

Click to expand...

OK, good to know.

It is my experience that too little play (and I don't mean "interference fit" nor even 0,01 or 0,02mm !) can lead to litterally seize the long gear very quickly when running the machine at high speed.

Click to expand...

Ouch!

As for lubrication, although I don't think the manual mentions it, there should be a particular position of the headstock ram, when the drivetrain will "lift" oil from the main gearbox, up to the lubrication channels on both sides of the ram (where cotton wicks takes oil to lubricate the slides).

Click to expand...

I'll look for this, thank you.

This video will get you an idea of what I mean : Deckel FP1 Graissage automatique du Belier - YouTube

Click to expand...

OK, now I get it!

Cheers,
Bruce

Hi Gents,

I want to remove the FP2 back in order to clean out the dust and crap and examine the belts. I started doing this (removed hand wheel + 4 bolts) then understood that the SIDE (and piano hinge) appear to be connected to the back. Is that correct, so I need to remove the sides and back *together*? (In which case I first need to remove DRO cables that pass through the side.)

Cheers, Bruce

Ross, TNB,

I've taken a closer look at this. The axial play on the long gear is 0.110" =2.8 mm, which is WAY too much. In fact the gear can slide so far towards the front that it has eaten away a bit of cast iron from the case. Fortunately that was no match for the hardened steel of the gear, which looks undamaged. I have attached a pictures, you can see the "nibble" at the top right corner.



To fix this, I need to get access to the bushing at the front of the column. How do I remove the small (upper) plug at the front of the column to get access to the bushing behind it? It has an M5 grub screw right in the middle, which I removed. I then put an M5 bolt through a steel bar spanning the column and into the hole (an improvised puller) and tightened up, but the plug didn't budge. Is this the right approach or is there a better way? (I thought that the entire shaft might be hollow and tried passing a 5mm diameter piece of round steel bar through from the back, but it wouldn't pass far enough forward to reach the plug. So I can't "drive out the plug" from behind.)

On the top of the column, over the bushing, is a flat head screw. This is visible right in the middle of the photo. The screw has gall marks indicating that someone tried to remove it in the past. I assume that this is the locking screw for the bushing; before trying to remove the screw I want to get that top plug off so I can investigate inside. What's the best way to get this plug out?

Cheers,
Bruce

ballen said:

Ross, TNB,


To fix this, I need to get access to the bushing at the front of the column. How do I remove the small (upper) plug at the front of the column to get access to the bushing behind it? It has an M5 grub screw right in the middle, which I removed. I then put an M5 bolt through a steel bar spanning the column and into the hole (an improvised puller) and tightened up, but the plug didn't budge. Is this the right approach or is there a better way? (I thought that the entire shaft might be hollow and tried passing a 5mm diameter piece of round steel bar through from the back, but it wouldn't pass far enough forward to reach the plug. So I can't "drive out the plug" from behind.)

On the top of the column, over the bushing, is a flat head screw. This is visible right in the middle of the photo. The screw has gall marks indicating that someone tried to remove it in the past. I assume that this is the locking screw for the bushing; before trying to remove the screw I want to get that top plug off so I can investigate inside. What's the best way to get this plug out?

Click to expand...

Bruce

IIRC, one of the two holes you have at the top of the column is here for lubrication purposes.
The long gear spins on bronze bushings that get their lubrication from one of these two holes. I'll dig in my litterature and check it out but I'm quite sure.

The M5 threaded hole on the plug was probably made by a previous owner, since I don't think it is original. Nevertheless, if the plug is well seated, an M5 bolt is probably too weak to exert the required force to get it out.

I think you'll have to take the y headstock off the machine, remove the y-axis bevel gear and nut, and get the hollow shaft out.
It will simply push and get the plug out from the rear.

To get the shaft out, you can use a long rod of a suitable diameter, put it in the hollow section of the shaft, and hammer from the rear end.
The shaft is supposed to come out on the front end.

Don't bother with the plug. It will get out naturally witht the shaft, and removing the sole plug wouldn't give you anything more than what you have in the present situation.

Please note theses indications are from memory so take them with a grain of common sense

As for the back pannel, I think you have to take it off with the side door as a whole. Fussing around with the hinge wouldn't make things easyer anyway.
Just be happy you don't have a later machines because in that case, you'd have to take the spindle motor off on top of that ! (note I'm not sure removing the back is required to chek or swap the belts).

Hi TNB,

Thanks for the quick reply!

TNB said:

IIRC, one of the two holes you have at the top of the column is here for lubrication purposes.

Click to expand...

Yes. Of the four visible holes in my photo, the threaded ones on the top and bottom are to hold the aluminum lubrication-distribution frame in place. The one on the left is for lubrication: I can see the shaft through it. The one towards the front, on the right, has a screw in it, which is galled and which I can't budge. Am I correct that THIS is what locks the front bushing in place? I need to remove that screw BEFORE driving out the shaft?

The long gear spins on bronze bushings that get their lubrication from one of these two holes. I'll dig in my literature and check it out but I'm quite sure.

Click to expand...

Which literature are you checking? I thought I had everything that was available, but apparently not.

The M5 threaded hole on the plug was probably made by a previous owner, since I don't think it is original. Nevertheless, if the plug is well seated, an M5 bolt is probably too weak to exert the required force to get it out.

Click to expand...

I agree; in the photos and other literature that I have, no similar screw is visible.

I think you'll have to take the y headstock off the machine, remove the y-axis bevel gear and nut, and get the hollow shaft out.
It will simply push and get the plug out from the rear.

Click to expand...

The Y-ram is off; I have also removed the feed screw. If I understand you correctly, I simply need to remove the bevel gear from the shaft, AND the lock screw visible just to the right of the center of my photo. Then, striking from the rear with (say) a round brass rod, I drive the axle and plug out the front of the machine.

To get the shaft out, you can use a long rod of a suitable diameter, put it in the hollow section of the shaft, and hammer from the rear end.
The shaft is supposed to come out on the front end.

Click to expand...

I see. The shaft runs the full length of the head, but is partly hollow to enclose the lead screw. I HATE hammering on stuff when I am unsure of myself; I don't want to damage that shaft.

Don't bother with the plug. It will get out naturally witht the shaft, and removing the sole plug wouldn't give you anything more than what you have in the present situation.

Click to expand...

Well, if I could get the plug out it might help me understand why the lock screw for the front bushing is so hard to remove. I suspect that the lock screw head will shear when I try to remove the screw, which means I'll need to drill the lock screw out very carefully. It would be nice to be able to see behind the plug when I do this, so that I don't drill too deep and further damage the shaft/bushing.

Please note theses indications are from memory so take them with a grain of common sense

Click to expand...

Wilco. This is incredibly helpful, I hate flying blind.

As for the back pannel, I think you have to take it off with the side door as a whole. Fussing around with the hinge wouldn't make things easyer anyway.
Just be happy you don't have a later machines because in that case, you'd have to take the spindle motor off on top of that ! (note I'm not sure removing the back is required to chek or swap the belts).

Click to expand...

I've removed the side and back and cleaned out a mountain of grease and gook. Also discovered that the "three screw + 3 grub screw" bearing plate in the back (which was visible without removing the back) was totally loose. I set it back in place, adjusting the screw just short of the point where I could feel the bearing starting to stiffen as I rotated the feed nut by hand.

Cheers,
Bruce

ballen said:

Of the four visible holes in my photo, the threaded ones on the top and bottom are to hold the aluminum lubrication-distribution frame in place. The one on the left is for lubrication: I can see the shaft through it. The one towards the front, on the right, has a screw in it, which is galled and which I can't budge. Am I correct that THIS is what locks the front bushing in place? I need to remove that screw BEFORE driving out the shaft?

Click to expand...

YES. Make sure there isn't another screw belo the first one.

ballen said:

Which literature are you checking? I thought I had everything that was available, but apparently not.

Click to expand...

A mix of FP1 & FP2 manuals. Construction is exactly the same on both machines in that area.

ballen said:

The Y-ram is off; I have also removed the feed screw. If I understand you correctly, I simply need to remove the bevel gear from the shaft, AND the lock screw visible just to the right of the center of my photo. Then, striking from the rear with (say) a round brass rod, I drive the axle and plug out the front of the machine.

Click to expand...

That's the idea. Remove the bevel gear, preferably the y axis nut and you're good to go (assuming you've taken the locking screw out first).

ballen said:

Well, if I could get the plug out it might help me understand why the lock screw for the front bushing is so hard to remove. I suspect that the lock screw head will shear when I try to remove the screw, which means I'll need to drill the lock screw out very carefully. It would be nice to be able to see behind the plug when I do this, so that I don't drill too deep and further damage the shaft/bushing.

Click to expand...

I doubt beeing able to see the front end of the shaft will help you much more anyway... All you'll see is the end of the shaft in a bore... Nothing else.

TNB, thank you for walking me through his. I have a couple of more questions.

TNB said:

YES. Make sure there isn't another screw below the first one.

Click to expand...

I have tried all of my tricks: the locking screw for the front bushing is NOT moving. I am going to have to drill it out; it's better to do this before I destroy the head, so I still have the slot to guide it. I think it's M6; I am thinking of first drilling a 3mm or 4mm hole down the middle of the screw, perhaps that will relieve the pressure enough that I can then unscrew the remainder of the screw. I fear that the steel bushing inside has been "hammered" against the lock screw and deformed and is now holding it solid.

(Note: according to the manual and parts diagram, the locking screw does not have another screw below it. It is quite short, so I would be surprised if this is wrong.)

A mix of FP1 & FP2 manuals. Construction is exactly the same on both machines in that area.

Click to expand...

Ahhhh! I am now studying the (better) drawings of this area in the FP1 manuals.

I doubt being able to see the front end of the shaft will help you much more anyway... All you'll see is the end of the shaft in a bore... Nothing else.

Click to expand...

OK, I see your point.

I am concerned that the front steel sleeve has been damaged by the (presumed) crash, and that driving it out the front as you describe might be difficult, because the sleeve has been deformed and burred in the crash.

If I remove the feed screw nut and bevel gears and rear grub screw (and rear bushing?) would it be possible for me to PULL the hollow shaft out from the BACK of the machine? Then I could drive out the plug from the back using a steel or brass rod and then get a good view of the (probably damaged) front steel sleeve. Or is it not possible to remove the hollow shaft from the back of the machine: the shaft can only be driven forward and pulled out of the front?

I have read some old posts that indicate that the hollow shaft can be pushed out the BACK of the machine. In this case, after removing bevel gears, bearings and the bronze nut from the shaft, I can run a 5mm bolt into the threaded hole in the plug in the front column, and use that to push out the shaft from the front to the back. If the shaft is burred that will damage the bronze bushing in the long gear. So if it drags/sticks in the long gear, I'll have to try the other direction.

Cheers,
Bruce

My 2 cents worth would be to do as "T" suggests and drive the plug and sleeve and axle out the front.
If the hollow axle has been damaged by the locking screw removing it to the rear will drag it through the bushing of the long gear....could damage those bushings.
Much easier to drive the hollow shaft out (going forward) than to pull it out (going to the rear)....
Worn face of the sleeve will cause little damage i think to the housing going forward...tend to roll back any face damage.
Cheers Ross

Hi Ross,

Yes, I'm becoming convinced that you and T have got the best approach. I hope that the most unpleasant part is going to be drilling out the flat-head screw at the front which locks the front bushing into place.

Is it right that I don't need to remove EITHER the two bevel gears OR the spindle nut and bearings and bearing spacers, in order to drive the hollow axle out the front? I like the idea of leaving those undisturbed if possible. As far as I can see from the parts diagrams and disassembly instructions, the forward few cm of the spindle nut is a press fit inside the hollow axle, so driving the hollow axle forward out the front of the machine will just slip the hollow axle off the spindle nut. If the spindle nut is "tight" inside the hollow axle then this would stress the thrust bearing to the front side of the spindle nut, but I doubt that's the case here.

Rather than hammering the hollow axle out the front (I have a strong aversion to hammering machines!) could I PRESS the hollow axle out the front using the lead screw as follows? After freeing up the lock screw for the front bushing, I put a ~100 mm long brass rod INSIDE the hollow axle. Then reinsert the lead screw into the bronze nut, and rotate the manual feed for Y, pulling the lead screw into the hollow axle. When the lead screw has come far enough forward, it will reach and push against the brass rod, which in turn will push the hollow axle forward and out of the case. The force will be taken by the thrust bearing at the very back of the machine; being a thrust bearing it is designed exactly for this type of force.

Cheers,
Bruce

Sure,I think you could use the screw to push the axle forward, however parts that have been assembled for some time will usually
require a much higher initial "press" to get them moving....Impact helps in this regard. The energy imparted with even moderate impact (hammer) will
get the parts moving without really stressing anything.
Remember that the force of the press using the screw is equal in both directions.
The hammer on the other hand does not load any opposite reaction to the machine....Just into the end of the shaft. Can't see where it is really any kinder to
the machine to use its Lead Screw as a press....I would go with the hammer using a soft drift and good mechanical judgement to gauge how hard to hit the parts.....

As to the stuck screw....first option would be an impact driver...be sure to use a blade that fits the slot with minimal slop. Hollow grinding a blade a bit larger down to fit the slot is best.
The hollow ground blade will concentrate the torque at the base of the slot not the top...

The other option if the driver fails..would be to use an oxy-acetyline torch to locally heat the screw....Use a large enough tip to get some fast intense heat on the screw. (Lesser heart sources won't work here)
Don't be afraid to get it hot...ever red. The adjacent iron will not be damaged if you keep the flame directed to the screw. Stay on the screw as long as you dare, then allow everything to cool.....completely cold to the touch.
apply some penetrating oil then try the impact driver again.....
Theory here...you don't know who has been in there...could be thread sealer in play...if not the other part here is that the screw will expand tight when hot against the body of the casting.
The iron will not grow too much with the heat, when cool the steel screw will shrink some and be easier to remove.

Cheers Ross

Hi Ross,

AlfaGTA said:

Sure,I think you could use the screw to push the axle forward, however parts that have been assembled for some time will usually require a much higher initial "press" to get them moving....Impact helps in this regard. The energy imparted with even moderate impact (hammer) will get the parts moving without really stressing anything. Remember that the force of the press using the screw is equal in both directions.
The hammer on the other hand does not load any opposite reaction to the machine....Just into the end of the shaft. Can't see where it is really any kinder to the machine to use its Lead Screw as a press....I would go with the hammer using a soft drift and good mechanical judgement to gauge how hard to hit the parts.....

Click to expand...

Ok, noted. After I have the lock screw out, I'll do one or the other of these (or both) and report back. Do you agree (to the best of your memory!) that the gearing and bronze nut can simply remain while I drive out the hollow shaft?

As to the stuck screw....first option would be an impact driver...be sure to use a blade that fits the slot with minimal slop. Hollow grinding a blade a bit larger down to fit the slot is best. The hollow ground blade will concentrate the torque at the base of the slot not the top...

Click to expand...

I did find a perfect fit hardened blade. It's deforming the slot (from the bottom!) and I'm sure that if I put an impact driver on it, it will snap off the screw-head in a heartbeat. I have avoided heat because I don't want to anneal and soften the already weakened screw. But at this point if I'm going to drill it out, I might as well. From the condition of the machine I don't think thread-lock is likely, but that's another reason to heat. I don't have oxy-acetelene, only a small and medium propane torch, but will give it a try.

At this point, I think I understand how it all fits together, time to act...

Cheers, Bruce

Bruce !!!!

I only had the time now to check out my litterature and it appears that I was probably wrong :
Seems like the hollow shaft is supposed to come out by its rear end.

Check out this page from the FP2 spare parts manual. The shaft supporting the long gear is the first one. It clearly has a shoulder on the rear that will prevent it from coming out toward the frond end.



And now the drawing below from the FP1 manual. There's no doubt.



That's probably why I was remembering having to take the y-nut off, but I really don't remember having to drill and tap the front plug to get it out.
Memory is clearly not what it used to be...

Apologies

TNB said:

Bruce !!!!

Check out this page from the FP2 spare parts manual. The shaft supporting the long gear is the first one. It clearly has a shoulder on the rear that will prevent it from coming out toward the frond end.

Click to expand...

Good catch T......
Cheers Ross

Dear T, Dear Ross,

Check out this page from the FP2 spare parts manual. The shaft supporting the long gear is the first one. It clearly has a shoulder on the rear that will prevent it from coming out toward the frond end.

Click to expand...

Good catch: I've seen this drawing of the "obere Getriebachse" many times in my parts book, but never realized that this is the hollow axle. Duh.

When I was a kid, my father used to drive me nuts, because he was so slow and careful and deliberate in things like this. Now I'm happy that some of it rubbed off on me! I have not yet started the next step, because I'm still waiting for the left-hand drill bits to arrive.

(After removing the bronze nut and bearings etc) I might be able to drive the hollow axle out from the front simply using a long 4mm or 4.5mm drift going through the threaded hole in the center of the plug. If that works, then I can easily remove the plug working from the rear, to get at the (probably damaged) front bushing. We'll see.

Thanks again for the guidance. I'll take lots of pictures and create a step-by-step set of instructions that I and others can refer to in the future, to see how this works.

Cheers,
Bruce