Bringing Home an FP3L

Been pretty dissatisfied with all the Bridgeports I've run, so I've decided to try out a Deckel:


I'm a little ashamed to move such a clean machine into my filthy shop, but it'll at least remain covered when not in use.

I expect to have a number of questions but will of course use search first.

For starters though, what do people do for power tapping on single-motor Deckels? Previous threads seem to indicate running a VFD to reverse the motor shouldn't hurt so long as the feeds aren't used? Do I have to get over my aversion to tapping heads?

Speaking of VFD's, 2000 RPM ain't that fast. I've found no mention of folks using VFD's to overspeed the motor. Is this likely to hurt the spindle bearings or feedworks?

I'm glad this machine seems to be in good shape and well maintained, but not pristine. I'm buying it to use it, so if it were much nicer and I might feel guilty when it starts slinging chips.

(Can't get the second photo to rotate, alas)

When I got my maho I knew I’d never enjoy running anything like a Bridgeport anymore. For tapping you’ll probably not be able power tap without a tapping head as the quill isn’t all that sensitive (or at least on my maho). I’ve never been brave enough to try it out. There is a high speed head for your machine in which would likely solve your rpm problem. Well it solves one problem but creates the problem of finding one. I wouldn’t run it at higher than 2k, maybe 2500 like the later machines would be fine but that’s not much of an increase. And these machines sure sing at their max rpms. Congrats on the purchase, that sure is a nice machine.

Ooooh! You got the rare extension table. (Jealous)

Lucky 7

Notes on spindle speed:
Later versions of the FP2 and FP3 (two motor) upped the spindle speed to 2500 RPM but kept the lowest RPM as well...did so by
using a two speed drive motor.

Some time back i rebuilt a early first gen FP3 and since the drive motor was single voltage 440 (had been rewound by the previous owner) i had the motor rewound to give two speeds like
the later machines, giving 2500 RPM at the top.....

The FP-NC's all came with 3150 spindles...and they use essentially the same bearing setup .
The later "flip" head NC's delivered 6300 RPM vertical spindles....but those machines employed angular contact ball bearings in the spindle, and an improved , circulating oil system to lube the bevel
drive gearing in the head.....
There are high speed heads, you would want a late version with a square head ...gives 6300 RPM max i believe....and if plugged into the correct socket on your electrical cabinet should start/stop using the normal spindle
push buttons...Likely you will spend as much for the HS head as you paid for the machine....

Might consider a speeder.

Would guess that going 3K on that machine if all the gear train and bearings were good would be no problem with the exception that she will likely be quite noisy at that.

As to tapping.....Tap head is your best option, but you could easily wire up a dual contactor (push/pull) to reverse the main motor drive using an aux push button...I have Deckel manuals
for an FP2 that show a reversing switch on the electrical cabinet so it must have been done, but truth be told i have never seen that on the early machines (single motor)....

Nice looking machine.
Check the geometry carefully....the "L's" have a tendency to lean forward as the ways wear owing to the weight carried.
Would be interested to hear how you find the "weight" of the vertical hand wheel when you move the column up (Z plus)
My sense is that having the extra travels and weight capacity is very nice...but the "L's" to me feel a bit "heavy" to use, interested in your take...

Would want to replace the way wipers, especially the vertical wipers as they can take a beating
Oil change...would spec a good quality "AW" 46 hydraulic oil for both gear boxes.

Would suggest making adapter studs for your CAT tooling so that you retain the original Deckel draw bar.(S20x2.0 buttress) That way you can use the direct taper mounted Deckel collets ...can save valuable head room when needed.
Keep your eyes open for an overarm outboard support, and horizontal arbors...Running plain horizontal milling cutters works great to remove large amounts of metal, also good for slitting or step milling jobs....

If planning to mount a DRO, the cleanest setup it to mount the "X" scale inside the ways ...Have done this on my FP3 , but it requires some parts...not sure on your machine, but can supply drawings of
what i did ....".Sneebot", who posts here, did the scale fit up on his FP3 using my setup...He also built a very nice (as factory) pendant control for his machine.....

Wondering where in the Bay Area you are located?
Cheers Ross

That is a nice looking machine. In the SF Bay Area you should be able to rent all that table real estate for a small house for a dotcom employee . I would have little concern running the spindle speeds up to 2,500 and maybe 3,000 RPM, but would want to disassemble, clean, get clearances right, and re-grease, and then monitor temperatures closely.

Folks are correct that this will likely be a noisy proposition at 3,000 RPM. That is the case with my Deckel FP2NC and both Acieras, although the F4 is a little better. I'd be an idiot to run those mills at high speed without earmuffs or earplugs. The gear noise is one thing I dislike about the Euromills. I wonder what they sounded like brand new? For a clue, my FP2NC running the gear train in reverse is nice and quiet, suggesting the reverse faces of the gears are unworn. It's too bad no one AFAIK has joined the 21st century and built a gearless Euro-style mill with integral spindle motors driven by inverters.

Congrats with your new mill. It's looking good [emoji846][emoji106]
You will get much joy with it.

Btw, the Bridgeport ain't that bad.
It's just another segment/league.
It sure has it's advantages over the deckel [emoji6]

Ummm, Ross, don't you mean lean back with wear? Most weight on mine is in the gear box, well behind the ways.

To the OP, these are tippy machines compared with other Deckels. Suggest bolting stout timbers to base fore-aft pre move. (You probably know this...)

Lucky7

Lucky...Yes you are correct....Likes to lean back.
Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA said:

There are high speed heads, you would want a late version with a square head ...gives 6300 RPM max i believe....and if plugged into the correct socket on your electrical cabinet should start/stop using the normal spindle
push buttons...Likely you will spend as much for the HS head as you paid for the machine....

Click to expand...

Why not get a Fine Boring head instead of that clunky High Speed head.
The High Speed head has this clunky, self-contained drive - and it still hasn't got a nice quill.
The Fine Boring head has feed by handle, by handwheel and automatic feed. And 6300 RPM. Very nice.
I'm about to fit mine to my FP2 to drill some 6061-T6 aircraft aluminum.

Cheers
Erik

Rather good looking FP3L

Had a choice of the FP2L or an FP2 earlier in the year and took the FP2, sometimes wondered if I'd done the right thing.

Enjoy

John

Thanks for the kind and helpful info everyone!

It sounds like the only thing a mild over speed will hurt is my ears. But faster than 3k and a different head is required. Other than severe blashpemy, is there any reason not to make an adapter to mount a Bridgeport head? I like Bridgeport heads, just not all the rest. R8 is plenty stout for high speed, smaller work and one can do 4000+ rpm fine.

Ross you’re spot on with the heaviness of the handwheels. The Y is perfect, but the X and Z were heavier than a Bridgeport knee. I may put larger handwheels on to compensate.

Luckily machine came fitted with a Heidenhain DRO. Though I need to find/check the manual and verify everything works. The X axis was reading ~1/2 of what it should. Might be in “lathe” mode. Down the road I very well may copy your scale installation, as the current setup is a bit exposed.

That’s a good suggestion on geometry. I’ll check tram but luckily it seems like on an “L” machine, if the column takes a lean fwd or back, it should only affect tram and all the axes should remain orthogonal. Hopefully some inspection will verify if this is true. If there is some lean, probably the quickest fix will be shimming the table back into tram.

The CAT to buttress thread adapters are an excellent suggestion, thanks! That also guarantees the CAT taper doesn’t swell if the drawbar is a bit tight. If others are interested I can run some extras.

Lucky7, I didn't know the table extension was so rare... But I'm excited; it's like a mini HBM!

Erik I'd love to find a fine boring head, but am not holding out hope. By contrast Bridgeport heads are dirt cheap and common out here.

Congrats - nice machine. There were a lot of those here in RSA and they gave excellent service. In general they were fitted with a compound head. Some were well traveled : I bought a couple of them in 2000 from Germany and some German dealer bought them back from me a couple of weeks after they've arrived in SA. Spares are available. They tend to fall backwards,all the ones I've looked at had quite a bit of corrosion under the table where it mates to the slanted section and head gears were toast on some ( fine on others ). I really liked the fact it could take serious weight on the table compared to MAHOs of similar heft. I did not like the wear towards the front of the ram and the loss of accuracy when traveling it up and down though with some attention that can be accounted for. The one I kept for myself was an earlier model in very original condition and still had the Heiden. optical scales on it. They worked well. This one was also noticeably quieter than any other I've see. No idea why.

Halcohead said:

Thanks for the kind and helpful info everyone!


1. is there any reason not to make an adapter to mount a Bridgeport head? I like Bridgeport heads, just not all the rest. R8 is plenty stout for high speed, smaller work and one can do 4000+ rpm fine.





2. I’ll check tram but luckily it seems like on an “L” machine, if the column takes a lean fwd or back, it should only affect tram and all the axes should remain orthogonal. Hopefully some inspection will verify if this is true. If there is some lean, probably the quickest fix will be shimming the table back into tram.



3. Lucky7, I didn't know the table extension was so rare... But I'm excited; it's like a mini HBM!

Click to expand...

1. My guess would be that a BP head will be too heavy. The ram on these machines is not that stiff. Neither is on a BP now that I think about.

2. Well, still painful enough. Notice how easy would've been to fix that problem or at least minimize it.

3. Yes, it's very versatile. OT : in the late 90s I was offered a tiny TOS HBM which was to my mind the most versatile machine I've ever seen. But they wanted too much money and it had an ISO50. I'm still crying.

Erik said:

Why not get a Fine Boring head instead of that clunky High Speed head.
The High Speed head has this clunky, self-contained drive - and it still hasn't got a nice quill.
The Fine Boring head has feed by handle, by handwheel and automatic feed. And 6300 RPM. Very nice.
I'm about to fit mine to my FP2 to drill some 6061-T6 aircraft aluminum.

Cheers
Erik

Click to expand...

Hope we see some pictures of it in use ? [emoji6]

Btw, 6300rpm, how often do you use those speeds? [emoji16]

The mill made it home. Ironically the rigger accidentally delivered a pallet of extra tooling I didn't buy, including a riser block, fine boring head(!), jig boring table, and FP1 vertical head. I'll probably regret being honest and returning it, but I was happy when the rightful owner told me he'd be putting all the tooling to good use. I was hoping he'd want to sell me the boring head, but no luck.

Lifting this with a crane was fun. Rigging it to keep the straps away from the DRO and handles took a little thinking:



Per Ross's suggestion I checked tram and parallelism of the y axis to the table. Tram was good within .0002" over a ~16" circle. This is *much* better than I've ever found on a bridgeport (largely due to knee sag and rock, plus bowed tables).

The Y axis measured parallel to the table within .0002" at the ends of its travel (~12"). However there was a ~.0005" low spot in the middle, possibly due to wear in the center of the table from fixtures and stoning. Either way, I'm satisfied.

The Heidenhain DRO doesn't remember its position when powered off which is annoying, but other than that so far I've been quite pleased with minimal bad surprises.

Still have to make some CT40 to Deckel buttress adapters, but should have those done soon. It only came with a single 25mm collet so I've also ordered some 25mm to ER16 & ER32 collet chucks to use in the meantime.

A few questions:

Adjusting the rapid clutch? The rapids don't seem noticeably faster than the 500mm/min top feedrate, and they basically don't work for raising the column. I've been trying to find stuff in the manual but searching is slow since I don't speak German...

The one-shot oiler is different from every Bijur unit I've used. The manual seems to indicate the handle should be operated "jerkily". Can someone corroborate? I was surprised to see the manual suggest Vactra #4, but that's fine.

Do Deckels normally have Z axis locks? So far I haven't found anything in the manual, searches, or on the machine itself.

What Heidenhain DRO model do you have? A photo would be nice.

Z-lock on my FP2 is useless, not sure if yours will work better. Fortunately the mass of the tables seems to make locking redundant.

That looks like a very nice mill, and it appears that the geometry is still good to 5-10 microns. Not too shabby.

PS: to Ross, Eric, everyone. I have both a high-speed head and a boring head. I always assumed that both were needed because the boring head was not intended for milling side loads. If that's wrong, should I sell the high-speed head? It's only advantage would then be that it's quieter than the boring head and that it has an adjustable reach in Y.

Bruce:
I have both as well. Don't use the high speed head on the FP2 as it is the later "square" design more suited for the later machines or first gen FP-NC's.....Pretty heavy as well.

Have used the fine boring head for milling....No hogging and i personally limit the tool size to 1/2" but works fine for light work. Also don't do any milling with the quill extended on that head....


Halconhead:
Nice that the geometry tests well....good call on returning the extra auction goods.....
May not matter , but the current replacment for Vactra #4 is Mobil Vacuoline 1419.
Mobil changed the formula some years back without telling anyone and it causes problems for some users...hence the production of "Vacuoline" which is reckoned to be as the old formula Vactra.

Can you tell me where in the Bay Area you are setup?

Cheers Ross

Halcohead said:

Per Ross's suggestion I checked tram and parallelism of the y axis to the table. Tram was good within .0002" over a ~16" circle. This is *much* better than I've ever found on a bridgeport (largely due to knee sag and rock, plus bowed tables).

The Y axis measured parallel to the table within .0002" at the ends of its travel (~12"). However there was a ~.0005" low spot in the middle, possibly due to wear in the center of the table from fixtures and stoning. Either way, I'm satisfied.

Click to expand...

Your tram is shockingly good! Lucky you! None of my Swiss or German iron is that good, though the Aciera F4 is close. Both my FP2NC and Aciera F5 have drooped from the years of use. The F5 is at 0.001" in 10", but the Y motion is quite parallel to the table surface, which points potentially to the vertical head and its mounting. I need to put a square on the table and check with respect to Z to confirm whether the issue is droop. The FP2NC is more like 0.002" low in 10" in Y. Fortunately, the errors make no difference to the parts I machine.

Those machines have a tendency to get scratches on the bedways of the X
A possible cause might be the poor lubrication
Iwould advice to check it
The oiler has 2 outlets and all the oil takes the outlet with the less resistance So to solve the problem I put a tap between the line of the outlet which passes all the oil Close that, lube some so the other outlet gests some oil And open it to get some oil through the other outlet

Peter

Peter from Holland said:

Those machines have a tendency to get scratches on the bedways of the X
A possible cause might be the poor lubrication
Iwould advice to check it
The oiler has 2 outlets and all the oil takes the outlet with the less resistance So to solve the problem I put a tap between the line of the outlet which passes all the oil Close that, lube some so the other outlet gests some oil And open it to get some oil through the other outlet

Peter

Click to expand...

That's very accurate observation. I bought and sold a couple of those and all had scratches on X. Sometimes quite deep. I still have one stashed away somewhere - I'll take a picture in a day or two and post. At some point I considered having a hardened strip made, lowering the way and having the strip screwed in. Of some interest is that the X way is finely milled and despite the scratches and possible poor lubrication the milling was still noticeable.